Ep 39: When You Overhear Microaggressions

Way back in episode 2, April and Tracie spoke about better alternatives to some of the micro-aggressive things white-identified Jews often say to Jews of Color. So what happens if you overhear someone else trot out a micro-aggressive question or comment? What can you do? What should you do? How can you interrupt the oppression without falling into saviorism? April and Tracie dig in to this question and offer some strategies for both disrupting the oppression and supporting the person on the receiving end of it. 

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director, and Tracie is a senior partner.: https://joyousjustice.com/

Read more of Tracie's thoughts at her blog, bmoreincremental.com

Additional resources:
You can read more about what not to say to a Jew of Color in this Kveller article.
Go back and listen to April and Tracie’s conversation in episode 2

Transcript

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- [Tracie] Our white listeners have heard from us before, what not to say to Jews of color and people of color. But what if you hear another white person say one of those things?- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable. You and I have talked on the show before about the classic thing that comes up with white Jews, when talking about Jews of color, where they're like, I don't know what to say. And we've talked before about it's not that hard. It's the same way you would talk to anybody. If you're at after services, talk about the sermon you just heard, or about the spread at the Oneg, or whatever. And what came up recently, I was hosting a conversation for white Jews to think about their own communities. And someone said, yeah, okay. I know what I'm supposed to say. But what happens if I overhear a fellow congregant or another white Jew saying, asking uncomfortable questions, or asking the Jew of color to credential themselves. I thought that was a really, really good question. How to interrupt that in a way that is productive, I guess, and not patronizing to the Jew of color. And can be heard by the white-identified Jew so that it could actually change their behavior and not trigger defensiveness. I actually thought that was a really interesting question that maybe we could talk about on the show.- Very interesting. And I feel like, subtly, there have been very few but a few times in my life where there has been an ethical or thoughtful bystander who has done what first comes to mind for me here, which is, because we're wanting to avoid being patronizing and also making assumptions about the person, what comes to mind to me immediately is if it's possible for you, and right now I'm speaking to a white Jewish ally who's listening, to be present, is to move into that circle. I'm envisioning being in an Oneg. And there's a two-way conversation happening where two people are looking at each other, is to gracefully step up and say Shabbat shalom. And just integrate, or say, do you mind if I join the conversation? And so you might want to wait if there's a specific exchange happening. But just getting proximate in a non-creeper way and joining. And I can't even remember the specific circumstance. And I've never even actually consciously thought of it. But as I was thinking about my first thought about this, I can energetically as someone. I don't how much you've talked about this on the show, but Tracie knows. And a number of the people listening know who are in our orbit from our programs or who are in relationship with me through friendship, or organizing, or Jewish communal leadership, is that I'm a very intuitive, empathic person. And I pick up on a lot of energy. And I feel like in different Jewish communal spaces, there have been moments where I felt uncomfortable. And at times, possibly the person actually didn't say anything, but there was someone who came into the dynamic and just stood there and looked at me, gave me certain looks of thoughtfulness and humility and strength. That actually just by their presence alone, contradicted my isolation and helped me access my own power again. And also watered down the experience, depending upon the severity of the misunderstanding or intrusion. Intentional, often not, that the other person I'm interacting with is causing. And just by actually being, it's almost sort of like filming the police is a very, it's not the only thing at times, there is more. But, actually, that alone. Just somebody else being present. And it's partially through body language. And so part of this also depends for you as an individual, again, white person, around where your energy is. If you feel competent and grounded and clear that something is not quite right. You coming into that space, ideally from a place of not savior, but I think I'm in a better, I have some good energy that I think it might be nice to bring into the space and to hold space and to notice. And possibly when different things come up to shift the conversation. Which I feel like some people have done for me. So that actually nothing is explicitly said and my autonomy and my choice around whether I want to explicitly address it or not, or subtly redirect, is further supported. And then that person, again, it's only a vague memory, but I feel like this has happened to me. And so shout out to that person, or those people who've ever done this. If you're listening to this, thank you for that. Of when something comes up, if someone says something like, how are you Jewish? And I go through this whole thing internally where I know what I want to say but I have a sense of how they may feel. And it's quite a sophisticated redirect. But they still may get that it's a redirect. And then they're gonna get weird. And do I have the energy, or worse. And so I'm navigating that and trying to honor my sovereignty, respect the spirit of the person in front of me and also deftly navigate the oppression that's being flung my way. Mostly, usually, unintentionally. And that people who have joined me in the past have waited for a moment to chime in and help redirect the energy in the conversation.- Yeah.- So they'll say, oh, oh, you're also from, oh, you're in Virginia? Oh, I went to Virginia Tech. Oh, yeah, my dad went there, too. Oh, really? What year? And just shift it And the other person, often, they're a little, I remember, they were a little jostled because they were in a different mode, but then they just joined in. It's a pattern interrupt. And then it just moves on and possibly, we actually get so engaged that eventually they'll say, Shabbat shalom. Oh, Shabbat shalom. And then they just drift off. And so, I think that's not the only way but I think it's actually quite a subtle and deft, I seem to like that word today, method for dealing with this. And so, that would be my recommendation for folks. I think some variations that may come up is if you are a leader in that community, particularly if you are the rabbi or the president of the congregation. I find, with some of this work, there's certain things that really need to be interrupted in real time. And at times it's explicit and even slightly it can be a redirect. So if I am a leader in a congregation. If I am a board member and I am informed about these issues because I've participated in something like Joyous Justice's Awareness Accelerator. And I'm like, oof, microaggression, microaggression. Ah, this person who I know is a long time community member and their grandparents helped to found this and somebody is walking up to them and explaining it to them what a Siddur, which is the Hebrew word for prayer book, what a Jewish prayer book is. I might walk up and say, oh, Sarah Stromberg, it's so good to see you. I haven't seen your grandparents in a while. So-and-so, did you know that so-and-so's grandparents are founders? I hope you don't mind me saying. How have you been? I haven't seen you in a little bit. You grew up in this community. Something, that is a little bit, one, I think that's very Ashkenazi Jewish, one of many patterns. It doesn't have to be quite that grand. I'm trying to think of something that is, but it's just this, oh, hi, Sarah. Or, whatever the person's name is. Hi, Julianne. It's so great to see you. Burt, have you not met Julianne yet? She's a long-time member of our community. There's something to me that I've been thinking about a lot lately around the both/and. There are oppression dynamics that are playing out right now and it's difficult. And some people have a journey to walk. Right now, there's also a benign reality where we get to create and set the tone in the ways that we want. And so, if someone feels rooted enough and confident enough to just come in and be like, what would be happening if that microaggression hadn't happened just now? That there can possibly be a redirect. And then there's also, which has at times happened. And often people have maintained the subtlety and sometimes they've been more explicit of saying that conversation seemed uncomfortable. Or they might say more directly, I hope I handled that well. I overheard that question and I turned around and saw you. And I don't want to assume how you felt. But I felt I would feel offended if somebody asked me that question. How are you feeling? Do you wanna discuss it? Is there any way I can be supportive of you? And then, to me, there's both the moment. And I'm talking a lot. I'll let you talk in a moment, Tracie. I've been in so many meetings talking today that I'm just in talking mode. I wanna hear your brilliance. But the last piece I'll say is that, so, yeah, I think that that, to me, that's what I would say. There's a lot more to say. But I think key things to remember are, every Jew of color has their own experience and identity and levels of knowledge and preparation and support around this work. And so there's a whole range of experiences that that person may be having and feeling. They may be longing for support. Receiving support, especially from a white person, possibly even another Jew of color, might be whether it's good or bad. And, depending upon the circumstances, it could be anything. And it's also neutral on a certain level. It might be the last thing they want, is for somebody to come in and intercede, even if they need it. And so I think it's best to tread lightly and mindfully. And also, potentially show up and be present. Especially if it's in a space where people are moving and mingling. So that's naturally happening anyway. Is to come in and provide different energy. Energy that is clear. Energy that when an opportunity arises to redirect. That's funny. That reminds me. Even if it's not so much, but just shifts the, especially if it's the white person talking to redirect them. It's funny she didn't mention to talk about that. I heard some similar themes in the rabbi's sermon. Did you notice that? That might even be better, to ask a question. To really pattern interrupt and help them have them have to shift their thinking?- Yeah, yeah.- And create an opening to shift it.- I like that as a strategy. In the conversation where the question came up, I realized, I don't know that, at least that I can recall in my memory, I don't know that I've actually been present while such an exchange was happening. I've heard many Jews of color tell stories about them. And so, in this conversation with, it was with other white Jews, and there was one person there who said that they actually have heard it many times and make a point of really interrupting and saying, that was an inappropriate question. And that person said that there have been some Jews of color who have thanked them for doing that. And others who've been like, hey, I can take care of myself. Back off. And so both reactions have come from the same strategy. Which aligns with what you just said, April. And I think is important for--- Be aware.- Just to remember, as white-identified folks who are endeavoring to be allies, we have to show up. And sometimes it's not what's needed. And we have to just accept, like, okay, now's not the time for that one. And it has to be okay. And that doesn't mean don't do it next time. That just means learn from it, figure it--- Adapt.- And adapt, exactly. And also, allow the person of color to lead, in a case like that. I mean, I really liked what you said about--- And a variety of other cases, too.- (chuckling) Yeah, but especially in a case like that where you're trying to be an ally.- Where they're the most-directly-impacted person in that situation. And that's particularly at times where white folks can get into trouble. Is if where you honestly, genuinely have a big response to what just happened, but it would be good for you, when you're interacting with different people, to in part, how this person is responding in a particular way. Now, that is a little bit different. If, in fact, you are being a courageous bystander and there is actually, which this does not as much but it can happen, and there's an extreme situation happening where there is a child of color being hurt.- Right.- Then, obviously, that's a slightly different circumstance. And it might still be. But interrupting, I personally almost always, unless somebody is really not good at it, but when somebody does step up and say something, especially as someone who leads a lot, I'm clear in my ability to lead. And also, collectively, it's exhausting. So it's actually really lovely at times when people thoughtfully do it. And also because there's likely some but less cost, potential cost, or risk for them involved than there is for me. And so it's actually, for me, great. But for any number of reasons, perspective, where they are on their own learning journey, or their own leadership. There might be someone who's just a seasoned as I am, or even more, who was like, no, actually I got this.- Or even just what happened earlier today. We all are carrying a lot of things at every moment. And I think that's just--- What happened earlier today?- Whatever happened earlier in that day to that person.- Yes.- You could just be in a bad mood and you're not here for it. It just happens. And that has to be okay. And not derail all future attempts to be in solidarity. That was the point I was making about that. When I heard the question in this conversation with white Jews last weekend, and I realized, I don't know that I've ever overheard it, my first thought for how I would handle, and of course this is all hypothetical, but I started to think about my own demographics and biography and the way that I might say. Like, if you and I were standing at an Oneg and somebody came up to you and said, oh, hello, how are you Jewish? I might say, you know, it's interesting. My dad wasn't Jewish but I've never gotten that question. Isn't that interesting? You know?- That's good.- So it's a redirection that is a gentle reproach. I think it's gentle.- It's gentle, but it's direct. And also I like it because you are not coming out as a hero in that situation. You're just owning your experience and saying, oh, and noticing. In these kinds of experiences, a good first step is noticing, just as you, and just taking it in. And also, to bring in the element of noticing, of walking up and saying, oh, I overheard the question. You know, that's so funny. You've never asked me that.- Right, right. I think that's how you--- It's not the hero thing, but it is pattern interrupting and creating a moment of awareness without stepping into what could be seen as a self-righteous teaching. Even if, in fact, it actually isn't. But if that person didn't sign up for that, it gets--- Yeah, yeah.- And/or isn't fully ready for it. And then that potentially can have backlash that still affects the person of color. So it's good to just keep it simple, I think, in this.- Well, I think, to that point, I actually really like what you first said about just really getting proximate. The idea that in that, cause it might not be a specific question in that way. It could be some other microaggression that's not a question, to which my first thought is appropriate. But even knowing that being physically proximate, maybe catching that person's eye and giving them a (groaning) do you believe this kind of a look, would be helpful.- Exactly, I was just thinking that.- That's comforting, to me, to know that that actually is a useful tool in my toolbox, in this particular circumstance.- And that I actually do have memories around with some of my wonderful anti-racist allies, like Dov Kent and Abby Levine and various other leaders where I've been in space with them and something stupid or hurtful was happening. And they got really close. And they were clearly deciding, and that's because I know who they are and I know they know. And I could clearly see that they were letting me address it. And they were just shooting me looks, like what you just said, that let me know that they were like, I'm honoring your space. If you want to call on me, I'm here. But I'm just here. And as soon as this person goes away, I am right here. It's not literally, but possibly emotionally and relationally catch you. And help you process this. And so that's been great, too. I think the final piece for me that I would want to add to this is especially for leaders or just even, again, engaged community members. Another part of this, too. So there's, I think the question was specifically about the moment. But then there's the afterward and the debriefing and follow up, both for that person. So I think there's two things that I want to point out. One is that it's important for you to notice this is happening. And if it's appropriate in the context of the conversation and you've gotten and the person feels okay, or they just volunteer it, if you offer to say, oh, I noticed what just happened. And I wanted to honor your space. But I'm here if you wanna talk about it. Maybe it actually didn't bother you. I was offended by it. But that doesn't mean you were. And you were the person who, you know. And create an opening that then they can share things. Because, then, in sharing that, you get to know them better. And you get to know that this person has experienced this at least once. And possibly, they will share with you that this is an issue that's happened to them several times. And that's important information for you to relay to the board if you are a board member. If you're the president, if you're the rabbi, to take note of this. And to thank them for their courage, for sharing that and for the strength and resilience they've had to cultivate, possibly, in order to continue to be in the space that they shouldn't have to. And that you are going to be thinking about this more. And if they would like to not on Shabbat, or not in the Oneg, or not at the event, but if they want to be in conversation with you about this further, that you are open and they can contact you anytime. Or if you would like, I would be happy to reach out for coffee. Also just to get to talk and hear how you're doing. Whether it's somebody you know or you don't. So, to me, also, part of this is also about the potential for relationship. Whether it's just casual and just a friendly face you see at Oneg that could develop into a deeper relationship. Or if in fact it's potentially a lovely friendship or acquaintanceship that can evolve. So, yeah, there's also the afterward around being present with the person and then actually having a meaningful conversation that shifts and/or also being there for them, if they would like support around action to take.- Or even just the direct relationship. I think it's really, really important for us for you to say, for us to hear. It's so important because I think there's this myth, especially with women, of the strong black woman. It's one of those--- I know, so lethal.- It's one of those double-edged stereotypes. And I think that especially (chuckling) white-identified folks, we sort of have it. It's one of the stereotypes we've internalized. And so she doesn't need us. She doesn't need me. I can see justifying not following up with someone.- We all need each other.- We do, we need each other. So I think it's a really important reminder, in this specific conversation, about what to do when you overhear microaggressions within the Jewish community against Jews of color. Even if in the moment you can't interrupt or you choke and you freeze or whatever. Following up with that person and saying, I saw that and oof and I hope you're okay. It sounds so obvious. And I know from experience, it's not always obvious. So I'm glad we're saying it out loud.- I was so triggered by that, Tracie.- I'm sorry.- No, you have nothing to apologize for. It's brought up a lot. My body is having, I started playing with my hair. Some anxious energy. And then I noticed my body was just like, I wanna sleep (laughing). Oh, but it's just potent and it's real.- Yeah.- Great. So I think that's a wrap for this episode. Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliott Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @elliotthammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question, or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and stay humble and keep going.