Ep 24: Deepen the Learning on White Leadership

Continuing their work in "flipping the script," April and Tracie offer some nuance and context for when white people can and should lead racial justice work. That conversation leads to contemplation on giving and receiving comfort and feedback, both within affinity spaces (with people with a shared identity) and across lines of difference.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com

Resources and notes:
The Facing Race conference
The Movement for Black Lives' gathering
More on co-counseling/re-evaluation counseling

Transcript

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- [Tracie] Today we're thinking about leadership, following, relationship, and everyone's role in this work.- [April] This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April & Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.- Hi Tracie.- Hey April, how ya doin'?- I'm doing pretty well.- Good. So--- I'm excited to dive into our subject today. Ooh, what were you- Yeah, me too.- about to say?- No, I was just gonna say, in our last episode we did some, we did a flip the script, and I think we wanna talk about another phrase that we can flip.- Flip the script. Yeah, and I think it's interesting, because with some of these statements, there're ones to me that are predominantly said by white folks, and then there're other ones that're predominantly said by people of the global majority, also known as people of color, and this is a sentiment that I think cuts across different groups in different ways. So this isn't one that falls more, it doesn't fall cleanly into a specific group, but is sort of just something that's out in the ether.- Yeah.- So do you wanna say what it is, Tracie?- Yeah, so it's the idea that white people should not lead racial justice work.- Yes. And I think, so that's one statement, and I think also there are kind of sub-statements that, because I think there is some legitimacy, although it's nuanced, to that statement, then I think people often take that sentiment, which I wanna unpack in and of itself, to also mean other things, like white people can't do this work or should not do racial justice work if people of color aren't present, and/or white people have no business teaching about racism or racial justice.- Right.- I think those are all kind of on the thought bubble.- Agreed, related but not identical. Yeah, there's a lot of--- Yeah, yeah, related but not identical, yes.- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean it reminds me of, at my synagogue, I'm co-chair of the anti-racism working group, and--- Yeah you are!- Yeah, and we had, I had a new member join recently, a white person and we were in a meeting, it was a Zoom meeting'cause it was recent, and she was like, "Shouldn't we be led by a Jew of color?" And I was like, "Y'know what?"As soon of a Jew of color"from our community expresses interest in leading this,"I will happily step aside, but until then,"are you telling me we shouldn't do the work?" Because, y'know, so.- Mm-hm, mm-hm. That's the question.- That was my, right, so that was my answer at the time.- That's the question, right? And to me, so what this gets to, so this is interesting, and I've heard this said or some variation of this said by both white people and people of color. But I, it's not either or. So I think as simply as possible, it's not an either or thing. I believe it's critically important, a guiding principle I learned in 2015 from the Movement, at the Movement for Black Lives gathering which I have taken on wholesale is that the people who are most directly affected by racism should be leading and their voices should be at the center of this movement and this work, helping to shed light on the direction to go and what we should do, but this movement is huge, and this is an issue that affects the United States, and honestly most of the entire globe at this point, racism. And so this is a statement to me that, it depends on the context and requires more nuance. White people should not lead racial justice work is not nuanced enough to me. I need it to be more specific, because a statement like that has huge implications in all kinds of ways that I don't think serve to advance us powerfully toward racial justice. At the heart of it, yes, I do believe that the voices and perspective of people of color who are most directly affected by racism should be the heartbeat and the vision of this work. But ideally, if we were to make this metaphor of the body, I would also hope that there are all sorts of people and especially lots of white people, who are the legs, who are helping to carry this work, since they are the descendants of the beneficiaries of racism and the descendants of people who instituted colonialism and racism in the first place, and on the local level and in different moments and times, and we see this throughout the Jewish community a lot, because of the impacts of racism and segregation in our country and within our community, right now a number of our communities are pretty white, or people perceive them to be. I've been saying for almost 20 years now, since I've been in this work, that when you start having a consciousness about Jews of color and you start looking for us, we miraculously pop out of the woodwork. You will start noticing, oh, there's this person here, oh, turns out their family has been a member here, have been members here for three, maybe they're even a founding, but I just didn't really notice 'em before'cause that really wasn't on my radar, and then there's another person who comes in and who's there, I don't go to Torah study, but there are three or four or one Jew of color every week who religiously, no pun intended, (laughs)- Pun intended, yeah.- yeah, actually it was intended, who religiously go to Talmud or Torah study every Shabbat, right? And if you walk into your Intro to Judaism program, you are likely to see people from all walks of life in that program, not only racially, but among a number of different identities and gender expressions, et cetera, ability, disability, right, that it's partially also what our lens are equipped to see, and so that's more for, more so for our white audience members, so I hear a number of people in communities often say, there aren't people of color, and I was like, see, maybe that's true, but there probably are and you just don't know. And even if they are there, this is work that is collective, that we all need to engage in, so there's leadership and then there's the work. Right? And I think distinguishing that is important. This is everyone's work, or arguably predominantly should be the work of white people.- Right. I think,- Right?- the word that's missing from the should statement that we're trying to flip the script on is exclusively. White people should not exclusively lead racial justice work. I actually think that's true. If we're--- I agree with that too, yes.- If we're doing, if white-identified folks are leading to the exclusion of the voices and the leadership of people of color--- And they're not accountable to people of color, they're not being thoughtful, they're not subbing in for a person of color, they're not in partnership with other people of color and in deep alignment with them, yeah. That, very well said.- Right, because then in that case then, we, those white folks are centering themselves in the work, and that is part of the problem.- Wah-wah, right.- So I completely agree with that, but when we remove the word exclusively, then the whole, the sentence changes and the nuance and the context matters a lot.- I want, here's a, I want white people mindfully and humbly leading this work in certain ways, especially around things that I don't wanna have to do as much, and/or I only have so much bandwidth for, so in your circles, with your people, that's not my work, that's your work to lead, among your friendship circles, and it is courageous, and sometimes it's, it depends on the group and the circles within which you walk, right, that could be easy-peasy, or it could be very difficult and scary, right? But I think, I'm feeling a desire to talk about the positive components of this, right, so what I'm trying to say here, because what we're saying, in a friendly but thoughtful and critical manner that I wanna add some warmth to it, is there is room, this is enough of a cluster-F that there is plenty of room for everyone to find a chunk of work to dismantle the system that is not helping any of us anymore. (laughs) And some of us still haven't fully come to the realization that any of the positive elements of it are an illusion, and that we're paying a huge price for that illusion of the benefits, any benefits that come from this, and a huge price. So anyways, what I'm trying to say here is, let me not get you into that rabbit hole, lemme stay focused, is I am excited about more people getting involved in racial justice work. I am very excited about white people getting trained up from, by people of color, by other white folks who are in deep and accountable relationship with other leaders of color, who are formally or informally have a sort of contractual agreement with them that, we're gonna partner on this, and I as, I'm going to partner with you, me having the voice of a white person, with this or these following people of color, and you have asked me, in the context of my allyship with you, to help bring my people, my white people in and do some of the preliminary lessons so that they're more ready for your leadership. There's lots of beginner-level work that needs to be done through discussions, through trainings, through affinity space. I think affinity space, white affinity space, I think all affinity spaces honestly are incredibly sacred and powerful. The core thing, the core element that I love about affinity space is that it allows, it creates enough safety, not complete comfort or safety, but enough safety so that people can talk about things that they haven't had a space to talk about before, and not have to worry as much about hurting other people in that space and doing some of that, bringing up the tough stuff, and I'm talking 'bout specifically in the context of white people, talking about what you heard from the people you love, and how you need to reconcile that.'Cause there are some people of color who are up for doing some of that work, but that really, I think pretty consistently across the board in multiple movement spaces with multiple elders, that is predominantly work that is best led by white people, again, in alignment with the directives and vision of people of color, and giving white people space to do that healing work and be in conversation together and powerfully move that work forward such that when a leader of color like myself comes into a space, we don't have to encounter as much racist treatment, and suffering, and we can make a lot more progress, because you've helped your community do more of the work and be ready for some powerful transformational work around racial justice.- Yeah. I think the point being that it is emotional labor for the folks doing that work, that healing that you just described, but also for the folks facilitating, and it's more, well no, I'm not gonna compare, but it is emotional labor that the folks of color who are leading maybe don't need to do. There's emotional labor for them regardless of where in someone's journey they're engaging, so getting to the point of closer to liberation.- And there's a lot less of us and a lot more of y'all. There's increasingly more people of a global majority or people of color in the United States, but not all of us are diversity educators, or have the time, or have that training, and so we need a number of folks to be, to regularly be in communication and be in accountable relationship with people of color as they do that, but be willing to step up and step in, and do that work and not delegate it out,'cause there's an element in there where I think there's both good intentions, and part of it also brings up echoes of slavery, and of a more racist past, where it's not our job to do the work that you need to do.- Do this emotional labor for us. Yeah.- Or other things, or in general. This is something, just like it's not, and I could pick another group, I don't wanna just pick one, but it's not the job of trans folks with me as a cisgender person, it's not the job, although I actually do have some disabilities, but I have relatively few, it's not the job of disabled people to do all the work for me. I'm going to look to disability activists, I'm going to look to genderqueer and gender-nonconforming and transgender folks, I'm going to read the materials and the thought leadership of people who've taken the time to do that work, and then do the part that is my work of integrating into my life and checking in with some of the thought leaders who have made themselves available similar to how I've made myself available to other folks, but I'm not gonna say, I'm gonna wait until someone comes in here, no, I want to be as much as I can, and some of us don't know these things, but as soon as we become aware, that is an opportunity for us to begin to take ownership over the work that only we can do, and to be guided by the leadership of thoughtful and experienced people who are most directly affected,'cause that's another nuance there where I think it's always important to honor and respect the voices of all people who are most directly affected, and there are specific people who have stepped into leadership who have had training, who have had healing, to help them through the painful elements and who are in a place where they are well-positioned to speak not only for themselves but to share insights on behalf of a community, but we should all, I would encourage us to be mindful, and this is nuanced thing, because also part of the way racism works is to undermine, so it's also not a white person's job, that's a nuance here, but to really look for folks who are established in various ways who've been doing this work for a while, and then as much as you can, as much as feels appropriate and you're ready for, follow their cue.- Yeah. Think it's, one thing that's coming up for me is, you were talking about who were most directly affected, I was in a white affinity space recently for anti-racists, and someone there was talking about the ways in which their family history was really affected by racism and ways in which their white ancestors had been separated from their best interest through racism, and it was a really interesting space and an interesting kind of conversation that this person brought to the table for this white affinity space, because though obviously Black, Indigenous, and other people of color are more affected, more directly affected by racism, racism affects us all, and it affects us all negatively, despite the benefits of white privilege.- And profoundly.- Yeah, and I'm not sure, I mean it was really, it was profound to hear this person talking about, and they got really deep into it in talking about alcoholism and abuse and depression that were tied, directly or indirectly, to racism's effects on their family's story, and I don't know that I've ever really thought about it in that way about the way that racism had affected my family's story arc, and it really made me wanna dig into that a little bit more, in white spaces obviously, because I think that with other white folks, if I'm centering that whiteness, and it's, the way that it was affected by racism, it's not an inappropriate thing to do, whereas with you, right, with my partner of color, this is not the space for me to sort of dig into those details with you. So I think that's--- Right, I mean, and--- I'm bringing this up only because I have seen the benefits of affinity space for a long time in terms of safer space, so that we're not hurting our partners, our friends, our colleagues of color by saying things that we, just unexamined racism. I'm recently becoming more aware of the actual positive effects and the positive potential outcomes of those affinity spaces as you just named.- Although it's nuanced here, but it's like, when we first met, I don't know that I would've been the person, but now that we're close and I love you very much, right, but like,- Right, we have deep relationship now.- but I've noticed, over this past year, I had a very awkward conversation with someone at some point, a white person who's been a lovely ally in a number of ways but still is, has more to learn, and--- Don't we all.- And she started talking about some of the challenges of her family and some of the dynamics she was struggling with with her family, and it was within the month of everything happening with George Floyd being killed, and I was like, "I love you and I care about you,"I don't have," and she couldn't hear it in that moment, and that was an awkward, painful moment. I do not, I think you fully deserve healing around this, I am not, it's not appropriate for me to be your emotional caretaker right now around it, and you deserve to be held, but I cannot hear your sorrow right now when I'm fearing for my family's safety. So for me, the distinction that really matters is that I think what you are teaching to various folks who are listening in is true for a number of people, and it's really dependent upon the caliber of your relationship with someone, and how much give and take and support there is. In the case of this person, they have been incredibly helpful to me in navigating some key challenges in the last couple years, in a sort of professional friend capacity, but still we weren't in close enough relationship that I felt comfortable being in a counseling type, care-taking role for her in a moment when I was in great need of support and that she was working through some of her angst, which I think is fine, but not with me, (laughs) not then, not right in that moment, and not with me, maybe at a different time.- Yeah. Yeah, and I think that speaks to that, I mean that's not just about race or racism, that's just about relationship, you know? And really being in relationship with someone and actually sort of allowing the give and take so that their needs can also be centered when they need to be, which is something that is hard even across, even not across lines of difference, y'know is, how many people are like, if you're giving comfort and you're saying well at least you didn't, any phrase that starts with at least is not actually comfort.(laughs) Y'know, like that's, it's the same sort of moment where folks are just kind of misreading. One of the other things I wanna come back to in terms of this phrase that we're talking about, sort of unpacking and flipping the script on about leading, white folks leading racial justice, in addition to the exclusivity that I wanna say, if that were added in, is the statement is true, the other piece is about the reasons that folks lead, and so when, especially when white folks lead for ego, and it's ego that's pushing,- Or money, or profit.- right, then it, then again, it becomes complicated and,- Problematic?- yeah that's a great word, problematic. So many white anti-racists, especially early in their journey, and I'm including myself, the allyship is performative or the anti-racism is performative in order to get the you're-not-a-racist cookie, or the whatever that accolade is, like you're one of the good ones, and so when leadership is done to get that kind of, you're one of the good ones, then yeah, it's not done for the right reasons.- Yeah. It's not for the right reason and it's going to show up in the work at different points because then one is seeking validation, as opposed to doing the work because you should.- Right, or because it's the right thing, and that, those folks--- Because then that, because then I'm seeing that as a person, for, as a person of color, working with folks who have that, who've had that mindset in the past, because then when things get difficult or hard or they're not getting validating, then they start unraveling, and I'm like what's happening? We have work to, I don't, and so it's not just in theory, it's how that then manifests at times when it matters.- Right, because it's hard to take feedback when you're doing it for the validation. So if you're working and you perpetrate racism, even in your leadership as an anti-racism, if you're doing it for the right reasons to make the world a better place, to make yourself a better person and to bring equity and justice to everyone, then when someone says to you,- Mm, so good.- wow, what you just did actually maybe isn't what you meant, but it came, it really did come off as racist and here's why, if you're doing it to bring greater equity and justice, as hard that might be to hear, the response is, whoa, thanks for telling me so I can avoid it in the future. If you're doing it for validation and accolades, then how dare you, right? How dare you, don't you know who I am?- I'm a person, yeah, yeah. Yeah.- And then, and you're falling back into that,- These are my intentions.- a good-bad binary, right. And I don't wanna, for those of you who, in that moment, the white folks listening are like, you start to cry or you feel your heart in your throat, me too. I'm not saying it's easy. But I'm saying that when we sort of get right with ourselves and center what needs to be centered and not ourselves, then you see how, wow, that is not what I want to happen, and thank you for showing me so that I can avoid it in the future is actually the direction you want to move. And I'm not saying it's easy. I, in the past six months, a really dear friend told me about something that I was doing that was, he felt, invalidating his lived experience as a Black gay man, and it was really hard to hear 'cause I love him. He is one of my best friends. And I felt that I had hurt him in one of the ways that I try to make it my life's work to support him, and it was really hard. And after I sort of cried, away from him so he didn't have to care-take, I was a little bit of a coward, but he brought it back to me, and when he brought it back, I was able to say thank you for bringing this back up and giving me the opportunity to apologize. So anyway, I didn't expect to tell that story, but it felt important for the white folks listening thinking like, yeah that, I don't, (laughs) that's really hard.- And I wanna say, right, in a corollary way for the people of a global majority listening, holy shit, can it be scary to have to, or be in a place of deciding if we wanna confront a white person who may have power over us, who we may like, who may be the parent of our child's best friend, who you, insert any number of things, and what I wanna say to us is, it's not our job to teach or confront white people, and yet, at certain times, because of a number of variables, we deem that it is. (laughs) Because no one else is there, and there is harm being done, and we can see that it's only going to get worse, and we assess that, and I just wanna give us a lot of love and respect and support to say it can be draining, it can be terrifying, it can be difficult, it can feel, we might feel resentment that I even have to say something about something that may be so obvious to us around how to be kind or do something in way that is thoughtful, that we feel like this person knows in other areas of their lives, that it is just, I hope in that moment, whatever concept is most relevant for you, that every time you do that work, ooh, I wanna choose my words really carefully here. One, know that even if you are alone in that moment, know that you are supported, and that there are so many people of color who either, who know you, or who if they knew you or God willing, when they know you, would have their hand at your back, if you were comfortable with that, (laughs) if you consented, saying wow, hoo! Oh, oh. That was a lot to take on, we have so much love for you, we're here, if you need a hug. Next time if you wanna tap one of us in so you're not alone, just, I just wanna give lots of love and strength to people of color. And I hope what I'm saying is making sense, and I am self-censoring here'cause I wanna be thoughtful, I try to be thoughtful with both my Black community and my Jewish community, even though, I don't know how other people receive it, but as much as I talk about publicly, there's a lot, I choose not to say, because it's in mixed company. And it's something that I think in time, when mixed company has gotten educated enough, it's something that we can all hear, but I don't want it to be misunderstood. But what I would say, if you are feeling called to take action, so long as it's not simply white care-taking,'cause that can be problematic, (laughs) if it's just like ooh, there's a white person upset, I better make them feel better, but if it's that there was something, there's something that needs to get corrected here, more power to you. I wanna say that ancestors are at your back, if that's something that's resonant for you, and current movement leaders are at your back, and it can feel a bit confusing, but part of that confusion is the immense courage it can take for some of us, and this lands differently for different folks, depending upon our different racial ethnic backgrounds, I can speak more specifically and most accurately to the Black experience, that it can be terrifying at times, to confront white people about their racism,'cause there is all kinds of legacy around us dying or suffering consequences historically and today, from doing that, and yet, in different ways, when the timing is right, we gotta do it.'Cause we gotta get free. So there's a lot more to say here. I hope in time I will have the resources for us to have convenings together, (laughs) and/or communities that already are in existence, woot-woot, of which some of us have the honor of being a part of, we can convene in those spaces, whether it's at Facing Race, or in Black liberation spaces and co-counseling, and people of the global majority liberation spaces and co-counseling. Sorry, I wanted to make sure to add the POC vantage point on that exchange.- I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you.- So our edit to this statement as Tracie said is, white people should not exclusively lead racial justice work. I think the statement is, I would add to that and say, people of color experiencing racism in the United States, especially but not exclusively Black and Indigenous folks who experience some of the harshest forms of racism, and some of this in some ways is both quite quantifiable, and in other circumstances, negligible, because all people of color experience violence and racism in various facets. But, so there's nuance there, that people of color, especially Black and Native folks should be at the helm leading racial justice work, and it is incumbent and incredibly important for white folks to pick up the mantle, and work in alignment with the vision of the leadership of people of color and people of the global majority, and take ownership in, within your spheres of influence to help lead that work. And always keep an eye out to see if people of color are present, and that you are centering their voices and leadership in that work, but also not laying your work to do around advancing anti-racism and racial justice in your community, not laying it at their feet.- Right. At its core though, I think, at its simplest, what you're saying is that, I think what you're saying, what I'm hearing,- Oh, please, yeah. Yes.- is that we all have a role. And so part of what could be behind saying white people shouldn't lead is, I don't wanna have to deal, a white person saying, I don't wanna have to do this, you do it, (laughs) and that's the other thing--- And it's people of color saying, you're overstepping your bounds. Which is a different statement than you shouldn't be in this work. But the point at which you're stepping on the toes of leadership of color, that's not okay.- Agreed. Agreed, and we all have a role to play. This is not, we're, we should, white folks should not use this idea of not stepping on people's of color's toes as an excuse to not do anything. Because there is a lot of work to do, and we can find our place and our role.- And some great choreography to boot. (laughs) Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @ElliotHammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit JewsTalkRacialJustice.com, where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going.