Ep 18: Hamilton and White Comfort

Starting with reflections on the musical Hamilton, April and Tracie dig into some of the nuance around comfort, right to comfort, and the tension between what we might appreciate about art even when the artist or the art's impact isn't what we might like.

Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com

Learn more about April’s work at Joyous Justice: https://joyousjustice.com/
Read more of Tracie's thoughts at bmoreincremental.com

Resources:

More about The Haunting of Lin-Manuel Miranda from the New Yorker.
Lin-Manuel Miranda's response to the criticism of Hamilton is outlined in an article from Men's Health. 

Transcript

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- [Tracie] In today's brief exchange, a reflection on the musical Hamilton leads to a conversation about whether or not we have a right to comfort.- [April] This is "Jews Talk Racial Justice" with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- [Tracie] Whole-hearted relationships can keep us accountable.- So you're saying you have this friend.- Yes, so I have this friend from synagogue who adores live theater. It's her primary hobby is watching, she has subscriptions to all the theaters and she just really likes it. And so we've seen a few things together, and she's told me about things, and I've seen some really powerful plays because she's said, "You should go see this." Anyway, we were talking about Hamilton, probably a year ago. I first saw it when it came to Baltimore, and then we started talking about it, and I mean, it's a brilliant, brilliant show and there are things that are amazing about it. It has allowed so many actors of color to be showcased in not stereotyped roles. And the music is amazing and all those things. But anyway, this friend of mine, who is a white Jew, said to me, "You know, I also really loved it when I saw it,"and there's something that makes me uncomfortable"and I don't know what it is, but if this many white people"are this excited about it, there must be something"that's like that's not quite where it needs to be."- Mm-hmm.- I mean, she said it kinda to make me laugh, but there also, it felt like there was some wisdom in that, which is-- A seed.- Which is kind of what I'm reacting to in this impulse of this, you were telling me, this fellow who told you he wished that Black Lives Matter had used, somehow, different language that would be easier to stomach. And so, my reaction is kinda like this synagogue friend's, like, yeah, but if white people are super comfortable with it, then will it actually make change?- Yeah, and no, there really is something to that, Tracie. In fact, if I remember correctly, Toni Morrison really detested the play, so much so that she commissioned a contradictory play to be made.- Right, that's right. I haven't seen that, so that play was called"The Haunting of Lin-Manuel Miranda."(both laughing) Which I haven't, I only know the name of it, and the fact that Toni Morrison commissioned it, but. I have heard and read other critique that it glosses over a lot of racism and slave-holding. I mean, Daveed Diggs, in the original cast, played Jefferson, and also, Lafayette, but he played Thomas Jefferson, and there is a line about where he talks to Sally Hemings briefly in the show, in one of his, in his first song, Jefferson's first song in the play, and there is some critique where, through Hamilton's voice, Lin-Manuel Miranda critiques Jefferson and Madison's slave-holding, but Washington kinda gets a pass, and even Hamilton's abolitionism is, I understand, kind of exaggerated in the play compared to his, what was in his life. It's also like super catchy and I love the music.- Right.- It comes back to that classic debate about the art and the artist, and the sort of larger, critique's not the word I'm looking for, context, larger context. It comes back to that again, which I bump up against regularly, as a consumer of art and culture. You know, sort of every time I learn something new about Picasso, for instance, I want to cancel him, and yet, he was so influential and whatever. So you know, finding a way to be both/and, instead of either/or.- Themes and threads coming up in our conversation here, Tracie. There's like, the thread that you just said relating to cancel culture that I've been thinking about over the last week, and at what, and I mean, that isn't the right word,'cause that's the dynamic that's happening, but specifically for me, the discernment about at what point, because there are certain points where someone has hurt... The degree they've hurt other people, the number of times, the veracity of the accusations, different components, because I notice, at times, there are certain artists where I've either heard rumors or seen certain things that have either been addressed or not, and that's a concern, and I wouldn't want to socialize with them, but it's not at the level that either an artist or a leader that it makes it, it's worth the loss of what they've created. And there are other times where it's very clear to me, since I was young, as soon as I first learned about things happening with R. Kelly, I stopped engaging with his music. Like I've never been very public about it, but literally, at, 'cause people often love that song, at my Black family reunions of "Step in the Name of Love." And I will politely sit down every time, no one's ever asked me, I didn't make a big scene, but I'm literally like, I can't celebrate to this.- Right, right.- [April] And not that I have vilified R. Kelly, but there's just too many years of unaddressed, it's clear to me that likely, he was profoundly hurt and abused, and there's just too much egregious violations. I can't do it anymore, right? But I get off track. The point is, or not, but that was a rabbit hole, but to me, there's so many different threads here. There's specifically the parts of Hamilton, I haven't actually seen it. It's like this joke where my roommate invited me the summer, I think it was the summer it came out, and the tickets were, there were tickets for $200 to see the show, and I thought, oh, I'll wait till they go down. (laughs)(Tracie laughs) It was like, I didn't realize how rare it was to have two tickets where her other friends couldn't go, and so, she had an extra ticket, and little did I know that that was gonna be. (laughs)- Yeah, yeah.- A really great chance, and it was gonna be, so oops! My bad. So we could look more deeply into, and discuss, specifically, the specifics of Hamilton, and then, to me, there's also just a broader and there's the theme that we have going here around comfort and how valid is something if it's extremely comfortable? And to me, you know,'cause I really strive to bring as much love and reassurance and comfort into my work as possible. I think the distinction or the nuance that I would add to your statement, because I think there is validity in it of your friend's joke and you sort of asserting that you think that that is valid is if masses of white people, right, the generally the white folks who I tend to work with in addition to the people of color I work with are people who, at one level or another, are already deeply committed or engaged to a certain extent or are on a pathway toward that versus the masses of people who still largely operate unconsciously and in racist, implicit and explicit racist ways in daily life, right? So to me, there's a distinction there, because I find, for me, because I notice that certain educators, whether they're people of color or white, at times, seem to actively, that they are averse to comfort, that they think that comfort is sort of the enemy. And in general, I much prefer a stretch zone and pushing and striving and being engaged, but I think that... Anyway, so there's a whole interesting thing there for me, too, around that, and...- I think that, I guess, I hear that, and that definitely is part of your genius is bringing joy to work, and you know, you counter the myth that you have to be miserable in order to work for justice, and that's one of the things I love about you, and I feel like you're right. It's always nuance and discernment.- [April] There's a line.- There's a line, and there's... It's a both/and, right? Because I think that the component of white supremacy culture about this is this right to comfort, and therefore, if something makes me uncomfortable, it must be wrong. That's the thing that needs to be countered, that there's, that we're somehow entitled to comfort, and therefore, someone who makes us uncomfortable is actually harming us. That is a false narrative, a false assumption. So I think that's part of it, and then, oh my brain, I can't, I grab, there's this great idea, and I'm like, I'm gonna say, I really wanna bring this up, and then, I lose it again.- [April] I hope what I have isn't contagious.(both laugh) Maybe the tables have turned in this conversation. Mwahaha. Let's all enjoy April's linear mind for the day.(both laugh)- I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh so hard.(both laugh)- It's okay. I appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliott Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram@elliotthammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com, where you can send us a question or a suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going.