Ep 14: White Supremacy and the Power of Culture

April and Tracie take the time to unpack a phrase that often comes up when Jews Talk Racial Justice: "white supremacy." The phrase has entered the lexicon of individual antiracists and movements alike, but what exactly does it mean? April and Tracie define the term, investigate the discomfort it can generate, and riff on the ways in which discussing "white supremacy culture" may be a way to reclaim agency and power.

Resources:
Baratunde Thurston's TED Talk
Tracie's 18 Days Exploring Racial Justice
More about Critical Race Theory
Read more about bell hooks from the bell hooks institute
Explore the life and impact of Audre Lorde
Racial Equity Tools
Jane Elliot's famous question to white folks
Characteristics of white supremacy culture as defined by Jewish scholar Tema Okun and Kenneth Jones (again, in a more visual presentation).
Another clear explanation of white supremacy and its history of violence, by Betita Martinez.
Robin DiAngelo unpacks the good/bad binary in this article
Amadou Diallo was an unarmed 23-year-old Black man who was shot over 40 times (19 bullets struck him) by New York City police officers in February 1999.
Learn more about Leonard Peltier, the Native American activist who has spent 40 years in jail after a trial that supporters claim was shoddy at best and unconstitutional at worst. 

Transcript

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- [Tracie] In today's episode, we dig into the phrase "white supremacy." Spoiler alert, it's not about white hoods.- [April] This is "Jews Talk Racial Justice" with April and Tracie.- [Tracie] A weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy-Decker.- [April] In a complex world, change takes courage.- Whole hearted relationships can keep us accountable. So April, I was watching Baratunde Thurston's TED talk recently. I assigned it in my 18 Days, and so I've watched it actually many times recently. And there's a moment when Thurston uses the phrase"white supremacy," and then he stops and says,"Wait a minute, let me define my terms." And I realized that was something that I'd really like to do with you, because we say that phrase often, and I thought maybe we could take a step back, as Thurston did, and really define what we mean by that phrase, "white supremacy." What do you think?- That is a great idea. And by the way, before we do that, you mentioned your 18 Days. Do you want to articulate a little bit more what you were referring to when you said 18 Days about the program that you referenced?- Yeah. So I developed this program, and then I facilitated it with another awesome Jew of color, Yosef Webb-Cohen. Hey, Yosef. Where people signed up, and then they got an email a day for 18 days each day linking them to a different video, or article, or podcast for them to sort of deepen their racial justice learning. It was called 18 Days Exploring Racial Justice. The Baltimore Jewish Council actually asked me to do it for them, so we did it here in Baltimore, and I'm hoping actually that other cities might be interested in doing a program in their city. So, that's my 18 Days.- So as you were just providing that lovely intro, thank you, Tracie,(April chuckles) I pulled up a reliable definition of "white supremacy" that I like, but I think it might be nice just to start by us more casually defining the term and concept as as we understand it. How does that sound?- Sure, yeah. So, I mean, it has two parts, which I think just the surface, just the drash, is pretty clear, right? White, those who are identified as white by our culture. So, I am one of our those folks.- Our society and government.- Yeah. And supremacy, meaning sort of at the top of the hierarchy, power over, and receiving the top, skimming the top off of whatever ration it is.- Disproportionate resources.- Exactly, disproportionate. And you look around at the CEO's, and the billionaires, and the folks who have power in government, and disproportionately they are white folks. And in fact, mostly white men. White folks- Yeah.- And what was that? And matter of fact, what was that? I missed the last part.- Mostly white men White male supremacist patriarchy as bell hooks would say. Do do do do do Which is fairly awful But I'm smiling to bring some levity to something that is hurting us all collectively. Yeah, so I think here, it's not just about us defining it, right? I think you both provided a great intro, Tracie, and what I would add to it is that different folks have different kinds of relationships with this term, and concept, and the implications that it has. As someone who studied critical race theory in college and has a degree in sociology with a concentration in social inequity, this is a concept that I am deeply steeped in, and it made ... It gave me language, and ways of analyzing, and understanding, and articulating all the things that I saw happening to my Black, and honestly Jewish family in this country, and helped me understand as a woman of color what was happening to me and why.- I'm glad that you named critical race theory, because I think that for some of our listeners the use of this phrase, "white supremacy," to mean something other than KKK members feels recent, but it's not recent for those who actually--- Surprise!(Tracie laughs)- For those who study race and racism it is not a recent use of the phrase to mean more than KKK membership. And so, thank you for bringing critical race theory into the conversation.- Yeah, and I think it's both exciting and slightly exhausting to name that it's from decades of work of leadership of color that we are beginning to untwine the grasp and how deeply woven white supremacy is in our society, and how it's a part of, a core part of the backbone, along with capitalism, and patriarchy, and various other dynamics.- I think the phrase makes some people uncomfortable. When they hear the phrase, and I guess they imagine the white hood, and when when they feel that it's been applied to themselves, they get really uncomfortable with that.- Themselves or the spaces, or institutions, or communities they navigate. So, even if it's not attributed to them directly, if it's attributed to their spiritual community, or other communities. And as you were saying this, Tracie, like part of me wants to say, when you say some people, do you mean white people? And I think what's interesting is that it's predominantly white people, but not exclusively, because all people, this gets back to what we've talked about before about systemic racism and the ways that it's touched everyone in our society, and that people of color internalize this. So even as someone who already basically had her own critical race theory happening in my mind, in her mind as a young college student, I remember when I first read essays by bell hooks, and Audre Lorde, and some other leaders when they spoke very openly about white supremacy, I wasn't opposed to it, but I had to adjust internally because I, I felt the powerful contradiction that scholarship was making against white supremacy by naming it. I think part of what it brings up for different folks across lines of difference, and I think more so for white folks, but also at times for people of color, is that it's scary because it's naming the elephant in the room, it's naming the wallpaper, it's naming the infrastructure of the building that you're in, and that feels scary to take aim and just shine a light directly on the fact that, yeah, when we look at all the demographics, when we talk about racism, at times ... A colleague and a beloved friend of mine, Amelia Diamond, when she teaches young Jews about racism, she finds that it's explicitly helpful to talk about white supremacy, because there is no racism without white supremacy. I think that a similar dynamic that, with a movement that's farther along because it has more white people in it and for various reasons, farther along and also more deeply entrenched in terms of timing, is the women's liberation movement. And white supremacy is a corollary to patriarchy. And I think you can actually ... It's fairly comparable in some ways. Patriarchy is people are much more comfortable at this point in time discussing that, but there are still a number of women, depending upon what part of the country they grew up in, their culture, how steeped they are in white supremacy culture, that may still be very uncomfortable with that concept. It's just a word that describes the power dynamic of the top of the hierarchy, the system of power, that I often talk about how anti-Black racism is the anchor, and the top anchor at the top of that, of that continuum, is white supremacy right? And so, a lot of us have been conditioned to not want to look at that, to see that as an extreme form, just like I suspect, I didn't live through it, that patriarchy for ... It's more mainstream now for people to attribute patriarchy from everything from(mild trigger warning), from sexual assault, all the way to the way that chores are divided up in the home, and who has to do what, and how money distribution happens. And many people, whether or not they've had sociological training or not, understand that those are all different components and dynamics within patriarchy. And some, yes, are worse than others, but they're all intertwined and serve to perpetually keep a proverbial boot on the neck of women, to perpetually systemically disempower women or people who were raised as women in this world, women or girls. And so, to me, the use of the word white supremacy is quite similar as it's talking about a systemic trend. And I think, Tracie, you have some insights about an additional phrase or word that when tossed in it helps open that up for you. This might be a good point to throw that part in. But just to close up that loop, that I think it's okay for folks to lean into the discomfort. I know in general with my learning journey there are all kinds of theories now that when I first heard them, I wasn't fully ready for it, but I gave myself time because I trusted the leadership and the teacher from whom I was learning to allow myself, almost like an intellectual acquired taste, that you might not be comfortable with it now, but give it time and let the concept, and the theory, and the definition, definitions, and ideas and concepts that Tracie and I are saying as well as other leaders, give it time to percolate. It doesn't have to be, there's no sense of urgency. I mean, that's not entirely true, but it's not like you have to figure it out overnight. It is a timely matter, but there's no need to feel forced. But that also doesn't mean when you're uncomfortable that one has to reject it entirely, or shut down a conversation or progress that's being made.- Yeah. Thank you for bringing up the analog of patriarchy because I think that that's really helpful. I especially, at least one white Jew I have heard say that they don't like use of the phrase white supremacy because they also feel targeted by white supremacists as a Jew, which is absolutely true. But when we use the parallel of patriarchy, you can see that women perpetuate patriarchy, even though it targets them. You don't have to be male to be a misogynist. You don't have to be male in order to perpetuate patriarchy. And it's the same with white supremacy. You don't have to be Aryan in order to perpetuate white supremacy. And I think that's a really--- While you're also targeted by it at times.- Exactly, exactly.- There are people of color who perpetuate white supremacy. Maybe not as much as explicit hateful white supremacists, but in the context of my work at times I see even at times well-meaning folks of color who are doing things that are forms of white supremacy culture, or who are replicating patterns of white supremacy that are hurting people of color.- And you just said a phrase, you added a word to to white supremacy.- I did.- You said white supremacy culture. And I think that's also very, very helpful. I find it helpful by thinking of it that way, as a culture. For me, I feel like it gives me agency back because culture is a thing that we, as individuals, as members of the culture, can affect. It's hard. It is really hard to change culture. That's why organizers say that culture eats policy for breakfast. And it's possible, right?- It is.- We've seen it happen.- Yep.- We've seen it happen with acceptance of LGBTQ people. We've seen it happen.- We're seeing it right now, right?- We absolutely are.- Like that's part of what we're talking about, that tension is a growing pain. What we're speaking into is a growing pain around the culture shifting. Sorry, please continue.- No, that's great, thank you. Like this is, we're doing it. We're, by talking about it, by like, as you say, speaking it into existence. And so, for me, I almost always say it as white supremacy culture. I add that third word. I think subconsciously because that helps to give me agency to see it where I have consumed it and internalized those pieces of the culture. I can reject pieces of culture and work to remove them by changing my habits, by changing my thinking. And that allows me to acknowledge the truth of white supremacy, and also allow myself the possibility of fighting back and dismantling it.- I love the way you say that, because I had a little bit of additional insight as you said that, that by adding culture perhaps it can concretize it for folks. Whereas white supremacy just, it feels like this, what's the word? Like untouchable, invisible force.- Yeah, amorphous.- But when you add culture, it's like, no, culture has different dynamics, has patterns that can be shifted. That, right, that it's this amorphous, ubiquitous thing, sort of like the patriarchy, as opposed to naming specific things about unequal pay, or other specific things that feel ... May still be daunting but that the actually you can look at it, unpack it, and address it. So now might be a good time, do you mind if I actually read out some of the definition from raceequitytools.org, which is just a great resource in general for anti-racism work. They define it here as"the idea or ideology that white people and the ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and actions of white people are superior to people of color and their ideas, thoughts, beliefs and actions. While most people associate white supremacy with extremist groups like," as Tracie said,"the Klu Klux Klan ... The Ku Klux Klan."(April laughs) I kind of like that I miss-said the name. It means it's like deteriorating in my mind and hopefully in the world. Though they're still fairly alive and well, but hopefully not for long."And the neo-Nazis." So, "while most people associate white supremacy with extremist groups, such as the Klu Klux Klan ..." Still did it again."And neo-Nazis, white supremacy is ever present in our institutional and cultural assumptions." There we hit culture again."That assign value, morality, goodness, and humanity to the white group, while casting people and communities of color as worthless, immoral, bad, inhuman, and undeserving." So it continues on, and it mentions that it's "a system where white people enjoy structural advantage and rights that other racial and ethnic groups do not, both at a collective and individual level." And the source from that is the dismantling racism works web workbook, right? And so, what's interesting about that definition is that most of it, for many people who are uncomfortable with the term white supremacy, it's for the reason that we and this definition named as well. Because the rest of the actual definition, most folks would be like,"Yeah, people of color have it worse." And yeah, that makes sense. It's sort of like the famous Jane Elliott clip from one of her presentations where she said,"Well, raise your hand if any of you in here"would like to be people of color."- Right, right.- Right? And then she says,"None of you are raising your hands,"so that means you know it's worse."You don't want it."And if you don't want it,"then why aren't you doing something to change it?" And so, to me, this is such ... It's both old, so part of me feels resentful of like, leaders of color have been talking about this since critical race theory was developed, since civil rights efforts, and the Reverend Dr. MLK, right? This is not new.- It's not a new idea.- And yet ... Whew, it's so emotional I lost my train of thought.- So, I think there's, if I may put a seed back in that I think maybe where you were going, was that despite the fact that this isn't new, you and I have talked a little bit about how folks maybe in trainings or within your orbit, white folks, might ask you to change the way you talk about it.- Right. Yeah, but it's ... It brings up two things for me as an experienced facilitator and as a human being. So, to me, whether or not people intend it that way, and to me most forms of racism are unintended, so we need to move past intentionality being a litmus test of whether something is worth focusing on or not. Because most of the stuff operates automatically because of conditioning and structures, and so we need to focus in on that.- Culture.- Yes.#Culture. And here it is again. And so, and internalized oppressor, and oppressed patterns, internalized oppression and superiority patterns, that again, usually operate mostly unconsciously for folks unless they've had extensive training. Ooh. So I have a two-fold reaction. One, in the moment when people ask that from me I just feel the oppression being put on me around not being able to use the word, and then separately for me as a facilitator and as someone who's been deeply trained in working across lines of difference in diversity, equity, and inclusion ... Brief rant about that, it bothers me at times when predominantly white institutions co-opt that term and begin using it, bandying it about in ways that don't honor the scholarship and the decades of thought leadership that have gone into that field, and sort of deputize folks as whether they're folks of color or white folks has having the experience after a training or two, or because they've had a one or two gigs. I mostly choose not to focus on it and focus on progress, because depending upon the context I think that's more or less relevant ultimately. So, it both feels exhausting and annoying to me, and oppressive when folks ask me not to use that word in part because it has different elements of white supremacy culture embedded within it in terms of a right to comfort, and that they're asking me as someone who has spent years studying, and reading, and restudying, and retraining, and working on myself intensively and weekend long and week long workshops of pouring over this material, so just the hubris and the lack of humility when people step on my toes that way. And to be really clear, there's a continuum. And then there are times when someone might come up to me personally and say,"I'm struggling with this." Or, "When you use this I'm feeling uncomfortable"and I'm trying to reconcile this." And that is not the same as someone coming up and explicitly telling me what I should do. Now, if I set all of that aside of how it personally makes me feel, when I have my official facilitator hat on, or really more of a wrap'cause my hair's too big for hats. There's a lot happening here. Is that I ground a bit more in compassion and I hold that I have a lot of different tools, I have friendships like my friendship with you, friendship with amazing movement leaders of color who I can go to get nourishment, but around all the reasons why that bothers me. And then as a facilitator, as someone who wants to come into a situation, and make the most of it, and move progress forward, there's a part of me who, when I've been doing my own work, which I often do, I can just say,"Ooh, that's annoying and like a steaming hot pile of poo."I'm just going to put that on the shelf right now."I'm not going to hold that."I'm going to let that sit." And then I'm going to say,"This person is struggling." So, and normally this doesn't happen to me often, because being a mixed heritage person, for a lot of different reasons I am very good at reading a room very quickly from people's body language, from what they're saying. So before that even happens, I try to anticipate or I just naturally often anticipate if this is a room, and I have temperature gauge exercises, I have different ways to help assess developmentally where a group is, because separate from systems of oppression, as a skilled and rooted and grounded facilitator, it is important to me to meet a group where they are. And so, as I also assess, so when I'm speaking with I'm aware that there are different folks listening to this, I'm both speaking to white folks and speaking to folks of color, who, generally speaking, would interpret what I'm saying in very different ways. One group, generally speaking, might be comforted by knowing that I'm caring for them. And another group of people, depending upon how much they're in social change movements might be like, "Take care of yourself"and like stop coddling these folks." Right? And for me, I decide, I assess if a group is too early on in the work, I will connect them with someone who has the bandwidth, and who has the energy, and can have positive energy while meeting that group where it is. And as I've continued to deepen and further in my own work, I realize there's certain conversations that I think do need to be had because that's where folks are, but I can't, I'm not the person for that. If I need to explain why it's not okay to shoot someone in broad daylight when you're an officer, if I need to explain why it's devastating that unarmed black people are dying, which at times is where some folks are in the conversation. That's not a good place for me. That feels painful. That feels like violence. That feels deeply upsetting, right? But, for me, I'm comfortable with a modulation at times where I will either explicitly say both white supremacy culture, or if it's more comfortable for you talking about white dominant culture, because dominance is pretty much supremacy, but it's a word that doesn't carry all that old baggage, and all of that old, honestly, acculturation from a racist society that explicitly chose to position and talk about white supremacy as being a bad thing, and have it fit into the good/bad binary that Robin deAngelo talks about. And so, I gently try to contradict that and talk about white dominance, which is still a way of making it visible, but is more approachable for folks. And so, I would offer that to certain people as you're listening to this, that I hope for some folks who may have had varying levels of discomfort with this term, that perhaps hearing some of this, it's opening up new possibilities for you or maybe it's totally resolved it. And for other folks, where it's also quite possible and reasonable that you may still have discomfort with it to one degree or another, to possibly consider trying on talking about white dominance or white dominant culture for yourself. I think, in general, it bothers me a bit and it is a little bit oppressive when specifically white folks, but other folks as well, when specifically in areas of liberation folks randomly start using a term that they just made up, whereas around other issues like philanthropy or other established fields, people don't just start making up terms and muddying the water. So I'm not saying to necessarily publish articles saying, "This is the word to use." That's going too far. I'm saying if you need training wheels on upping the level of your sophistication of analysis and participation in these conversations, and it helps to do some internal code switching for you, feel free to do that. That is a strategy that I've used, and I'm sure a number of folks have as well, in varying fields and areas of my life that have helped me excel tremendously over time where something didn't quite work, but I would make it work in my own mind. And as time went on, I would either reject it or eventually I would learn enough that whatever that concept that was difficult for me before, it started to make sense, and I could release the translation I was doing, or the code switching I was doing, and just embrace the whole concept and respect the wisdom and thought leadership of the folks who helped to trailblaze those terms and concepts.- I want to reflect something back to you. These are not the words you just used, but I want to sort of say this back to you, what you're saying, ultimately that I want our listeners to really think about is the fact that your discomfort with a concept or term is not a sufficient litmus test of its validity. I think that's really important, because that right to comfort, that feeling of like, "This makes me uncomfortable,"and therefore it must be wrong." That concept itself we really need to investigate. It's not true. It's just not true.- And it's often not helpful. Like it can be helpful at times, but to me there's a very real difference between discomfort and pain, and often discomfort can be attributed to growth. It can also be assigned that pain may be impending, and this is starting to go down a deep coaching world hole in my mind around the nature of what Buddhism calls our monkey minds, and the ways in which we have these brilliant brains that can be very helpful for us but also at a certain level are reptilian and will block off anything that makes us uncomfortable, and often the things that can be the sources of the greatest joy, and meaning, and advancement. And so, it's incumbent upon us to really interrogate that, and explore, and get curious about that discomfort. And that reminds me of something else that I wanted to name here too, thank you for that, Tracie. To me, I think it's really helpful to go beyond just noticing whether it makes us feel comfortable or not and interrogate why, and reflect upon our own life journeys, and our own upbringing, and the stories that animate our lives. As the daughter of a man who is literally a functional, lovely but a functional, lovely perfectionist, and has excelled at almost everything he's done. And regardless of that, that did not protect my father, who's a Black and Native heritage man, from being beaten by the police, from being wrongfully incarcerated, from experiencing extreme and repeated chronic, chronic is the word, from experiencing chronic discrimination in the healthcare system, despite his intelligence, his professional success, his insurance, that my father almost died and now has ongoing chronic health issues because he was repeatedly misdiagnosed. So my personal narrative, and also then exploration, and what I already knew about the history of Black folks, but the thing, one of the core things that my dad's journey and all the ways that that hurt our family, and despite him being a superhero, him not being able to protect us from institutional racism himself, or his family entirely. And so, that taught me a lot of different things. And it showed me that despite what everyone was saying in my schooling and on the TV, that things were so much better, and that really happened after he was beaten by the police when I was in middle school is I thought ... I believed all the sayings, or propaganda if I want to be a little bit bolder, that everything was better. And yet, that could happen to someone with my father's stature, and that sent me on a whole journey to learn more about Amadou Diallo, and all of the different forms of police brutality, and other unaccounted for or unprosecuted deaths of Black people. The wrongful, or I would argue likely wrongful, or definitely unjust long-term, decades long imprisonment of American Indian movement activist Leonard Peltier that opened up this whole world. And by this whole world, I mean actually the world and the reality that wasn't shown on the mainstream news. And so, so for me, when I reflect upon why white supremacy lands with me the way it does where I had some initial discomfort, but it also ... And it was just healing to hear bell hooks speak about it so boldly. I feel like I should say like Doctor, or The Great, The Legendary. (laughs) She's such a luminous and legendary figure in my mind, along with other scholars. And Audre Lorde, that when they spoke of these things, while it felt scary to me to speak about it as a freshmen and sophomore in college so boldly, it also contextualized the truth of my family's journey. And so, if it makes you feel extremely uncomfortable, if it bothers you, I think that that is an invitation to look inward around what has your conditioning been? And it's a place that can be, instead of a source of suffering, a source of fruitful introspection and growth. I've been talking for a while now. Back to you, Tracie.- Well, I just would reiterate that growth happens. Growth doesn't happen when we're comfortable. And so, discomfort actually is a prerequisite to growth. And so, I think that's an important thing to remember when these concepts make you uncomfortable, if they make you uncomfortable. There's one other thing that I want to maybe unpack a little bit vis-a-vis white supremacy, white supremacy culture. And that is to just layer on briefly class, because I think one of the arguments against the use of that word that I have heard in the press, whatever, or from just people's casual conversation is, "But white folks are poor."There are poor white folks." Or people at my synagogue, like, "I grew up poor."I grew up with nothing, so don't talk to me"about white privilege or white supremacy."- Right.- Yeah. Yeah, and so--- And I'm not saying that to people who are sincerely in strife, I've just heard this so much that I'm a little like ...- No, right, well, I actually was just gonna ... I agree.- But it's important. That's really good that you discuss this.- So I'm going to actually use data that is in everybody's brain around the way that our culture has responded to two different drug epidemics. One is the crack epidemic, which was devastating to Black communities when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s, and the other is the current epidemic of opioid addiction, which is predominantly hurting white folks. And the difference in the way that we talk about those two epidemics and have dealt with it structurally, one, war on drugs, which actually became a war on Black people. And now, it's like,"Addiction is a disease,"and we need to really care for these people,"and we need to figure out how we save them,"and save them from the opioids." And the main difference is the skin color of people who are addicted.- Race.- And so, I would just present that to those who are saying,"How can you talk about white supremacy"or white privilege when there are poor white people?" And this is a manifestation of how white supremacy is still at work in the lives of those who are white and also experiencing poverty.- Mm-hm, mm-hm. And the other thing is, what I would say about that, is that I want a tidy answer, and there's some great scholars who have tidy answers for that. I don't at this moment, but what I would say is that there are different forms of interlocking oppressions. And what I would say is that for white folks who are struggling, and this might be, you know, difficult to hear or fully digest, but I would invite you to consider the possibility that when we adequately address racism and there's more justice, that by addressing that, that a lot of these things are interconnected, and that many more opportunities will open up for everyone when our society isn't set up to chronically suppress people of color so intensely, and we collectively decide that no one should be impoverished, that Black people shouldn't be disproportionately impoverished, because when that's taken care of, that that will have a powerful ripple effect for everyone.- Yeah. Yeah, I feel certain that it will.- [April] Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram @Elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation, visit jewstalkracialjustice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes, and learn more about our team. Take care until next time, and stay humble and keep going.