The Joyous Justice Podcast

Ep. 137: Intentional, Visionary Leadership IS Pragmatic and Practical!

• April Baskin • Episode 137

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Join recently-ordained Kohenet April Nichole Baskin in a captivating examination and reconsideration of what often gets classified as "pragmatic" or "practical." April delves into the transformative power of mindfulness about language and advocates for a reframe, or at the least, thoughtful consideration of what we label as "pragmatic" and "practical." She asserts that visionary, strategic thinking and action that challenges conventional mindsets can, in fact, be some of the most pragmatic and practical thinking and actions we can employ.

This episode is a vibrant blend of personal anecdotes and visionary insights, culminating in a powerful call to, when necessary, intervene when brilliant insights and strategies are being shut down or ignored because they were (in)directly labeled as impractical. Instead, as allies and practitioners, we can bridge communication gaps and embrace and pilot innovative,  effective, and joyously just strategies.

Key Takeaways:

  1. Redefining Pragmatism: Understand how pragmatic thinking is often misinterpreted, and learn to distinguish it from default or fear-based thought patterns.
  2. Challenges of a Visionary Woman of Color: Hear April's experiences and the distinct challenges she's faced in promoting forward-thinking ideas in organizational settings.
  3. The Limiting Power of Language: Explore how language can both confine and liberate our thinking, impacting our ability to embrace innovative strategies.
  4. The Visionary's Approach: Learn the importance of transcending conventional thinking to adopt more visionary and intentional actions.
  5. Joyous Justice – Pragmatism Meets Vision: Discover how Joyous Justice programming blends practicality with strategic and visionary thinking.
  6. Strategic Thinking vs. Practicality: Understand why it's crucial to prioritize strategic thinking over mere practicality, especially when exploring new possibilities.
  7. Bridging Understanding Gaps: Emphasize the need for improved communication and collaboration to effectively bridge gaps in understanding.
April:

You're listening to the joyous justice podcast. A weekly show hosted by April Baskin with Tracy Guy Decker. In a complex world in which systemic oppression conditions us to deny others and our own humanity, let's dedicate ourselves to the pursuit and embodiment of wholeness, love, and thriving in the world and in our own lives. It's time to heal and flourish our way to a more joyously, just future.

Hi, shalom, salaam alaikum friend, it is Kohenet, y'all ready for this? Kohenet, April Nichole Baskin joining you for finally an overdue next installment of the Joyous Justice Podcast on the other side. I always love getting on the other side, but Really though, for real y'all, on the other side of lots of learning and growth and evolution and intercontinental relocation and a lot's been happening. Oh my goodness. Oh, what a heartbreaking understatement. Since I was last with you, I'm pretty sure we've entered a new Jewish year, 5784. And now we are currently, as I'm recording this and as people who are listening to this when it comes out live, um, if you catch it later, still great, still relevant, especially given the topic. It is a ongoingly relevant topic, but in this precise moment that I am recording this and you will likely hear this, we have entered the month of Kislev, a month of darkness and stillness and light within the darkness and miracles and hope and fried food and togetherness and connection. So I feel like I've landed a little bit. Also, for those who are joining on YouTube, most of our, the vast majority of our listeners listen, via the various podcasts, and there's like a tried and true cohort of YouTube viewers. Shout out to you. And those of you who are catching the video will notice that a rainbow, or maybe like a couple, like a double rainbow, has opted to join us on this video. And it's funny because as I was running tests and getting ready for this, that rainbow wasn't there, but it decided to join for this recording. And, uh, And how beautiful is that in the context of the fact that in the month of October of this Gregorian year of 2023, many of us have been pained, um, deeply pained by the war happening, in Israel Palestine or the Israel Hamas War. Oh, and so I love this rainbow here. Oh, it looks like I could turn it to make it go away. But do we want to do that? I don't know. Oh, it's still there. It still wants to be here. Along with some dust. Okay, so Shall we dive into the subject at hand that I'm looking to discuss today? There are lots of things happening in the world, but here's what I want to talk about today that is relevant in terms of what's happening in the world and is relevant in lots of ways. I'm curious. I could, so I could frame this as a question, I could frame this as a tip, I could make, I could, uh, relay it as a kvetch, as a complaint, which is my least favorite way. Here's what I'll say. I think I'll start with an assertion and maybe move to a question. We'll see. I think, not always, But more often than people seem to be aware of, that pragmatism and practicality are lifting up. And to be very clear here, I am super pro pragmatic action and practical thinking and action. And frequently, or not frequently, but often, more often than I think is flagged and people are aware of, I think that default, fearful, and or defeated, thinking gets labeled as pragmatic or practical thinking. I'm curious how that's landing with you, if that is a spicy take for you, if that is like, yeah, April, are you just realizing this? No, I'm not just realizing it. Or, or if you're like, huh, I'm not sure. Okay, so either way, please stay tuned. Here's what I've noticed about how it shows up for me and my living and leadership. And I frequently, I most notice this dynamic in the context of my work with Joyous Justice and more so in the context of my social change leadership within organizations. And I'm curious how people with different identities experience this, but as a cis woman of color, uh, lowercase Q queer lives a pretty heteronormative lifestyle though. Um, what I have noticed throughout my career is that when I share visionary and or intentional thoughts. Okay. And to me, visionary or intentional thoughts. Yeah. I think I wanted to add in like a mini lesson within this broader teaching and sharing in this podcast episode, to me, what that means. Getting into some of like the mechanics or the ingredients of that is that from my perspective that means that I am anchored in acceptance of the facts and also engaging in aspiration around What is possible or what we need to be working for and basing that on the current realities, but also not in my aspirations being limited by them. Right? So the way I like to think of it is like rock climbing or something. So I'm on the mountain, right? I'm noticing where there are crags and crevices and different places and where the, where the mountain slope is incredibly steep. Right. And like, at a 90 degree angle. Right. And then there are also rocks and different things happening and I'm not like floating off of the mountain, right? I'm anchored. I'm connected to the mountain and saying, I still want to get to the top of the mountain. And the slope is difficult. And I think it's possible. And here's how I think we can navigate it. And repeatedly throughout my career when I present different ideas. Now with the mountain example, that's That's more about what I'm trying to connect, use that metaphor or analogy or simile. I'm far away from those SAT tests. What I'm trying to share with that example is, or convey with that example is the acceptance piece, right? That I'm connected with the mountain and I'm still climbing it. Now, how that's different or doesn't quite work fully in the broader sense of what I'm saying is that. Um, in the, in that scenario of me scaling the mountain, it's. Obvious, because you're in the middle of the mountain, that you need to scale it, right? Whereas in organizational life, in life in general, people might be on the side of the mountain, and the terrain is complicated, and their practical perspective is it's not possible to go any higher, right? But now with that example Again, with the mountain, it's more obvious that you need to climb the mountain, but in day to day life in the context of systemic oppression and various dynamics or entrenched challenges, it may not be as obvious to people and perhaps to people with various privileged identities that it's obviously important to take assertive, strategic, visionary, intentional action up that mountain. So going back to my career and part of where this is coming out of is I've noticed a pattern. And so I stated my, the specific, some of the specific markers of my sociological identity here in my current physical form on planet Earth. Because.. I've experienced a dynamic throughout my career, especially when I was working within other organizations and in senior or C suite executive. Senior executive roles that when I would share visionary thinking, intentional, strategic thinking and plans anchored in awareness of what is currently happening and assessing different possibilities and reaching for a more visionary, intentional outcome or position for a program, for a department, for an organization, for a movement frequently Almost like clockwork, I would hear, not always, but like 95 percent of the time from white presenting, cis het presenting men., I would often hear, they would say,"Where's the practical pieces of this?" You know, I'm a more pragmatic thinker," but that's come up in meetings, a former executive director who I adore, who I worked with, he would often say, he would kind of squint his eyes as I was talking and I've come to realize in years since I understand more now what was happening in that situation. And then later in, and he was, and I want to give that leader credit. I think I'm speaking vaguely enough that most people wouldn't know who I'm referring to, but, because he would try, and this is earlier in my career, he would try to understand, he would try to bridge that difference. But I often found more recently when I was working with lay leaders who tended to be boomer age, although I also have experienced this also with Gen X men too, boomer age, and sometimes they're also gay men, so white cis men, often but not always boomers, that they would tell me, they would regularly say, well, we need a pragmatic solution here, or practical solution here, and I would often feel very confused, and I didn't fully, like, I would try to navigate it as best I could, but in retrospect, here's what I've come to realize, is that I think that their language was inaccurate, not intentionally so. I think that pretty much all of the individuals I'm speaking of here were definitely doing the best with the knowledge and understanding that they had at that time, as I think most people are most days in general, right? I think that their language is not intentionally but if they were speaking more accurately based upon my perspective and perception of things, what they would be saying is,"April, you are talking about something that contradicts my beliefs about what is possible." And or"I don't know how you would do that." Or,"I hear how you're saying you would do that. But that pushes me beyond what I feel comfortable doing." Or here's another way of thinking about it or saying it. Is that basically what I'm trying to say several different points here, one of them is that I think often frequently in those kinds of dynamics where there is in my case, but I'm sure it also happens at times to men too. But in my lived experience, it's been me as a cis woman and woman of color, is that I share strategic visionary ideas and leadership. And from my perspective, yeah. The vast majority of my work is highly pragmatic and practical and also has a visionary edge. So it's often piloting things are iterative and pushing the limits of what we think is possible because frequently the challenges that we have. We can't, the, the enduring and adaptive challenges we're facing can't be resolved by old strategies. But for some reason, people keep defaulting to old strategies. And so I'm often bringing in new ideas. Let's bring this new fellowship in that invests in leaders in a different sort of way and has a different kind of structure. Let's create a program that takes a few steps back and helps people clarify their understanding around certain things so that we can position them for long term success and then steadily raise the bar around what is possible for each participant in this program individually as well as collectively. Let's test it and see, let's see where people's interests are. Let's do some organizing. Let's weave in some one on one data collection and let's raise the bar. Right now I might be saying this in a very institutionalized context where organizing isn't a part of the structure and the makeup and flow. Of the work, right? And often people will say things when I say things like this, where I'm laying out a plan about next steps and what we should be doing. And if it's outside of people's comfort zone, and if it's different than their default thinking and the neural pathways that they have established, I find that frequently they indirectly label what I'm doing as"impractical" or"not pragmatic" when I would view it as, visionary and intentional and moving outside of default thinking and operating and agitational, generatively Visionarily, intentionally, lovingly, creatively, agitational to the modes of how we do things, but usually very pragmatic, but often since it's outside of those individuals, and this might not even be most people, but it's often people in key decision making and leadership roles, it's outside of what they think Is possible it's outside of their existing belief system. So, therefore, they deem it's impossible, even though it's totally within the realm of possibility. And I might even be citing other sources of contexts or spaces or places where these tools usually in places that have less resource. in certain ways and in certain respects, that these actions or, different dynamics are possible. And there's just so much there that I'm thinking about that I don't know that I can follow all the threads. To me, as I'm saying that right now, I'm thinking about, I think it brings up issues of trust and the level of trust these individuals have in me, which interestingly, you know, like some of the sociological dynamics come back in general. And I think that they might have issues trusting people who share their identity, although maybe a little bit less so or more so because, you know, maybe they'd have less issues because I might be speaking through a cultural paradigm and framework that is familiar to them, right? So that's also another part of it, too, that leads them thinking it's impractical is just from go, energetically, linguistically, even though I was raised in similar white supremacist institutions of higher education, I still have retained and specifically worked over time and more so since those meetings I'm referring to, to engage in Afro Indigenous coming home work to have a different relationship with time and different orientations to certain values and aspects that I think they feel the friction or reverb of. I mean, I'm embodying it from a place of joy, but it's bumping up against, against different constraints that they may have in certain ways. And so, I think there's a lot more to say about this. But I just want to say to you, if you have been thinking,"Oh, I don't know if and when I'm going to do Joyous Justice programming, you know, I need coaching and support, but I need it around more pragmatic issues. I want you to hear me loud and clear that the work that we do enjoy as justice is incredibly pragmatic. What it is not is default. What it is not is typical. What it is not is the same old stuff that often people go back to that still doesn't get them the results they want. What it is is highly efficient. And profound and mindful of your time and the constraints you're navigating. And right now, in some ways, I'm specifically speaking to my style overall and specifically the content. of our Grounded Growing program and the S.H.E.M.A. System and different S.H.E.M.A. Processes. They are designed, and it's so funny, I'd like to talk about this frequently lately, that a number of participants in the program, when they come in, they're initially asking for a syllabus, or what they should do. Steadily, I help them acclimate to Your life and your desires are the syllabus. You can work through the S.H.E.M.A. Process in order. You can do it in reverse. You can look at the overview of the S.H.E.M.A. Process and skip ahead to the M section. It's here to be in service of you. Right? So again, so that's like a different way of thinking about things, right? That rather than us being in service of institutions and structures and systems and ways of thinking, that it's worthwhile to find ways of thinking and cultivating communities and structures and systems that deeply are in service of us and our needs and the real time dynamics we have. So, yes, is the program visionary? And is the coaching and different offerings and education that Joyous Justice offers, is it visionary? Is it intentional? Is it highly strategic? Yes, it is. And I've taken years of refining professionally, spiritually, intellectually, and embodied ways, insights and principles, identifying principles across time and space, different contexts, different identities that consistently make a difference in helping people to regain access to their own agency. Personal power and choice, right, as Dr. Viktor Frankl taught us, we always have the power of choice, but because of internalized oppression, because of systemic oppression, because of various dynamics, patterns that we have ingrained, early defeats that we had when we were young that got really imprinted, there are a lot of different ways in our lives where mostly not consciously, but even consciously sometimes, we think we don't have choice. And I would say that I think it's perhaps visionary, but also super practical and pragmatic to help individuals in steady, bite size, accessible, not time consuming ways to steadily regain greater access to their capacity to make decisive, intentional, aligned, attuned choices. That align with your needs, your values and your highest visions of what's possible and what S.H.E.M.A. does is help bridge the gap and supports people and healing present and core wounds and clearing space and engaging in different, practical, on a daily and or weekly basis, sprinkling it in greater self care, greater connection to affinity spaces and opportunities for solidarity. Seed watering to engage. I love the metaphor that Tich Nhat Hanh uses from Buddhism of seed watering, right? All the best attributes and all the best attributes or middot, right? And also all the worst, as he teaches, are part of our store consciousness. And so there are ways that aren't radical, but are highly pragmatic and practical that we can steadily intentionally water the seeds of the desires and attributes that we want in our life and do so in a way that over time helps us to gain greater clarity, to access healing, to empty our energetic and emotional cups. Proverbial or metaphorical cups, right? To fill this, the, can we talk about it before? Fill the self care cup and empty the excess energy cup so that we have more agility and more agency to very practically and pragmatically in ways that are visionary and strategic move forward our highest visions about what's possible for our relationships, for ourselves, for our lives, for our organizations, for our institutions, for our society, and our world. So I invite you to notice when the phrases practical and pragmatic are used in supportive, generative, helpful ways, and when with you or with Another leading edge maverick leader visionary who has a track record of success in their career isn't, you know, isn't full of offering up pipe dreams and things that don't get anywhere. I invite you to be wary and conscious in relationship and in meetings and board meetings, especially if you're a lay leader or you're a, you know, if you're in a position, a senior executive staff member, if you're in a position of power, and now in your life for your own advocacy. If you're not in one of those strategic positions, but you're in other places of influence and power, in in other forms, including over yourself, which so many of us, including myself can continue to reclaim that power to catch at times if when someone mentions or reframes something or says,"Oh, let me actually bring this back to the practical..." Is attention being diverted away from visionary, intentional, strategic thinking? And in that moment, Is it, in fact, is there actually a need, not so much for pragmatic thinking, because also I think a piece of it is about potential fear of humiliation and people being afraid to say,"I don't understand that," or"from how I've been living my life--" I don't know if they would say it that way-- I see you're very clear about this, but it's not clear for me at all." Right? And so notice that as a moment, either in that precise moment, or you may need to go back and debrief with team members and say,"I hear you. I also don't fully get you, but I think we need to make a bridge for some of these other leaders, a cognitive bridge to help them understand. And, be more likely to get on board or to get on board with what you're saying, because they're talking, they're saying the words practical and pragmatic, but I actually think that it's just beyond their conscious, their, their mind's limitations of what they believe to be possible." So, more to come on this. I hope this felt useful, affirming, or divinely agitational, and it's really good to be back in touch. I continue to have a desire for, a two way street here. So if you have other, ideas or questions about what I've said, feel free to comment on the YouTube page or as I post elements of this on social media, or you can email me at info at joyousjustice. com. If you have follow up questions or want to share ideas, I'd love for this to be an ongoing dialogue. And perhaps, I think again, there's a lot more to say about this, so, or specific facets of what I said where I could dive in deeper. So if there's specific areas that you'd like me to prioritize in that, please let me know. And it's really great to be connected and getting to dance a little bit in your eardrum with you right now, intellectually and spiritually. And I'm so appreciative for your attention. And, it is my prayer and desire that this episode was useful for you. And I look forward to more in the meantime, much love and take good care.

April:

Thanks for tuning in to learn more about joyous justice, LLC, our team, and how you can get involved with our community. Check out the info in our show notes or find us at joyousjustice. com. If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love subscribe wherever you're listening. Tell your people, share what you're learning and how your leadership is evolving. Stay humble, but not too humble and keep going because the future is ours to co create.