The Joyous Justice Podcast
The Joyous Justice Podcast
Ep 133 (30 Reprise): Eight Passover Practices for Collective Liberation
In this reprise of episode 30, April and Tracie reveal the liberatory wisdom in eight practices from Passover observance.
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Resources mentioned:
Learn more about the characteristics of White Supremacy Culture: https://www.dismantlingracism.org/uploads/4/3/5/7/43579015/okun_-_white_sup_culture.pdf
Hear the song "All my relations" by Ulali: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgz8nocENw%20 and read the lyrics: https://www.flashlyrics.com/lyrics/ulali/all-my-relations-27
In honor of Passover this year we are resharing episode 30 of Jews talk racial justice. Now, the Joyous Justice podcast. Enjoy this episode in which Tracie and I discuss eight different ways of honoring and moving toward collective liberation in honor of the sacred, meaningful and rich Jewish holiday of Passover. You're listening to the joyous justice podcast, a weekly show hosted by April Baskin with Tracie Guy-Decker. in a complex world in which systemic oppression conditions us to deny others and our own humanity. let's dedicate ourselves to the pursuit and embodiment of wholeness, love and thriving in the world and in our own lives. It's time to heal and flourish our way to a more joyously just future.
Tracie Guy-Decker:So April in our last episode, which published right before Seder, first Seder, we talked about the fact that we need to get really clear and honest about the fact that for many black folks and other people of color in America, the sea never parted. And they remain in meets regime in Egypt's. Also another translation of meats, rhyme is the narrow place. And so today, this episode is dropping in the middle of the holiday, we were just talking about the fact that there are some practices of Passover that can be maybe instructive on how we move toward liberation. So I can't wait to hear this. This juicy list that you have, that you've put together.
April Baskin:Yeah. That you also help to contribute to thank you. So I think since there are eight different components of tomorrow, what I call it, Tracy, yeah, you
Tracie Guy-Decker:said eight Passover practices that can move us toward collective liberation. Yeah.
April Baskin:Hashtag racial justice. Okay. So. Okay, so where do I start digit digit digit?
Tracie Guy-Decker:Okay, can I make a suggestion? I would love for you to start with the the cleaning.
Unknown:Yeah, I was leaning toward that, too. So similar to how we start the holiday itself in preparation for the holiday, is to clean our houses thoroughly, and specifically to zero in on something that we want to be removing this case for the holiday. It's a humates, or items that are leavened, contain leaven leavening and or other foods depending upon your Jewish custom, that are not permitted on Passover, during Passover, and you need to actually remove them from your house. A times people throw it out. Other times people like my mother, who was like this food is valuable. So we're moving it into our distance garage or putting it in our storage facility because we need this food when the holidays over.
Tracie Guy-Decker:There's a custom to sell it to someone and then maybe buy it back afterwards. There you have to get it out of your possession.
April Baskin:Get it out of your possession, right. And so this is our first practice that we want to sort of modify a bit and say in general, this is also a good practice as it relates to racial justice is to pick one thing, one manifestation of internalized oppression for people of color and for internalized oppressor material. For people who are white or who are category categorized by white, much of the time and daily life in society, to one practice is to just pick Well, there are many different attributes of oppression or oppressor material, but to pick one at a time, and practice awareness and noticing throughout your Berent being throughout your thought patterns and your memories and your spirit. That thing and a reference tool that might be useful, that we haven't fully unpacked yet. are different attributes of white supremacy culture, or as Sonia Rene Taylor refers to it white supremacist delusion. And some of those things include right to comfort, feeling entitled to comfort and most situations or urgency IE or perfectionism, and is to take time to start to notice and engage in essentially, hush bone and nefesh. Right? Accounting soul. Yeah. And accounting of the soul. Thank you, Tracie has my back, as per usual. And yeah, so that's the first one, there's more I could say. But I want to, I don't want to get too long here because we have eight to cover. So that's the first one is take time in within and literally both. So part of the metaphor is, you know, the house being your inner world, but also your actual home, is also to perhaps do an inventory. And are your racial justice values reflected in the products you buy? On the art that is on your walls, on the books on your bookshelf being buying from artists and Company? Are companies and thought leaders of color? Are you buying from white folks who are courageous allies to people of color, whether or not that relates to what they're doing? But Are they someone who has shown over the course of their lives that they are committed to racial justice? And even more in terms of you want to be edgier? And even more stringent? Is is? Are they committed anti racists, right? Are they committed to an ongoing practice of perfection, but of doing this and, and this is not to say necessarily, that you need to go through your home and remove anything that wasn't purchased from a bike company, but as to notice, it is to notice that and in an appreciative positive sense, begin to think about where there might be opportunities in your home and the things that your family does, to begin to incorporate more antiracist into your ecosystem. So next up, we have a shift in diet. I really love this one, right? So on Passover, and for a lot of people, it's difficult in various ways, for various reasons. And people also in in our community, I think it's at times helpful to be very inclusive, and say that there are a range of different kinds of practices, not only around Sephardic and Mizrahi and Ashkenazi, but also just in terms of level of observance. And there are many people who find Passover meaningful, and they absorb it in all kinds of ways, right. But in general, traditionally, there's a shift in diet, and there's an emphasis on replacing bread, leavened bread with matzah. And also depending upon your custom also, perhaps not eating other foods that, depending upon minhag, or Jewish custom, the Jewish custom, you observe, are also not permitted on Passover. And so here, what I'm excited about is less about literal food, although that absolutely is incredibly important, but is just thinking more broadly about what you're ingesting. What is your diet? Are you feeding yourself, sources and thought leadership that support a belief system that is more powerfully antiracist and liberatory? Are you listening to leaders who not only bring rigor, but also compassion and practical tools that help you unpack this again, ideally, you have a diet that has a robust suite of nutrients. So you're listening as much as you are able to and are ready to, to thought leaders who are edgier and who are really out in front and leading and who might not make things more practical for you, but help anchor you in a Northstar of where you want to be moving toward. And then you have other people who may share your identity or may who may have different identities to you. But just like, in your life in general, right? Like we're taught that we should eat multicolored vegetables, in an effort to get a robust, diverse set of minerals and vitamins and nutrients. You ideally want to do that with your racial justice work. And ideally, and with your liberation work more broadly, and also, specifically racial justice work is to be thoughtful about your diet on social media about the shows you watch. Knowing that collectively Yes, one person only makes such a difference. We could get into that whole debate but but that collectively, the shows we're choosing to watch people track that data, right. So where are we putting our presence and therefore money or attend right and also in terms of what we're communicating to different corporations and leaders by the ways in which we show up or choose not to show up? So I think with this diet piece, just as we eat matzah I think with a diet an area of what we are our consumption, I think it's the best way that we can be mindful about our consumption in two ways both what are we proactively nourishing ourselves with? And what are we choosing to put a boundary around? Whether that is ongoing and permanent or temporary, temporary, or in seasons or phases? There's a lot of different options here. But as to beginning, beginning to be more mindful about this and recognizing we have the power of choice. Tracie, do you want to add something,
Tracie Guy-Decker:I just really want to underline what you just said about the positive and the negative piece of not negative, but avoidant piece of the diet, because I think cash route in general, which is the laws of Kosher the laws of keeping kosher, requires you to be more requires people to be more aware of what it is that you're consuming. And then Passover adds another layer to cash route. And so I think that the learning that the sort of meta learning from this, that April's pointing to is, is really interesting. And I love the idea of like, even just for a time, go on a diet, you know, immediate diet, where you're paying attention, and thinking about things that you both that you want to bring in and that you want to not bring in. I really love that as a as a practice.
April Baskin:Yeah, and that, to me, I think that gives us a lot more freedom. That doesn't have to be only by adding it can also be about making room. And it's not only about exclusion, at times, we don't times people think you have to immediately exclude and this is just in general for life, that at times are ways we can make meaningful change, without excluding and starting to just introduce healthier things into our diet, or a more inspiring, more aligned person into our social or professional network. And eventually, we're gonna have to make some choices, but it doesn't all have to happen at once.
Tracie Guy-Decker:Right. And I mean, to your point with the Passover, using it as a Passover practice, like comments is not bad. It's, you know, when it's not Passover, hametz is fine, it's good. And so there are bad things that you should take out of your diet. But my point is just like that intentional, temporary, or even more permanent noticing and Choice. Choice opportunities is not necessarily it doesn't have to be a huge judgment call.
Unknown:Right? But that's another way that we can move toward what's the word right like is to move toward collective liberation. That's that's sort of my phrase for what some may call the Messianic era is when we've achieved collective liberation. I just got to all sentient beings and the earth as well as a
Tracie Guy-Decker:collective liberation is the Messianic age. Who That's gorgeous.
Unknown:Yay, thanks. Right. So So we're talking about from Mitzrayim, to messianic collective Messianic era, collective liberation and and that shows a little bit of my reform movement bias as some people think, necessarily, that it might literally be a person and I grew up in a context where it was more thought of as a time and a context, more so than any one singular person. So next up, is
April Baskin:the four children. I want to name it. So I really love the four children as it relates to some moving out of Mitzrayim and toward collective liberation strategy. In terms of recognizing and I'm immediately reminded of this song that I shared in one of our courses, our racial justice intensive, called whiteness of Ruta. One of the things that we shared in one of the sessions was a song from Lolly called all my ancestors. And I think of the four children as being aligned with the song all my asters a little bit, although it's the four children traditionally can be a little bit more harsh in some ways. But it's just like dia that as we're working, and doing our work, that there are different people with different narratives, and that each one of them I've loved this is I'm like nerding out right now. As someone who teaches about racial equity and effective multicultural strategy and interaction and one of the core principles in that aligns beautifully with this idea of the four children that there are four children with four different tendencies and kinds of questions. And because there are differences in them, they also require different responses. For one of them. I think the response traditionally is a little bit harsh, and the child is told you know, you know, when when a child asks the custom Do you want to say it Tracy?
Tracie Guy-Decker:The thing about setting your teeth on edge setting their teeth on edge that thing? I don't
April Baskin:remember. I was thinking more about just the in my in my i think i I think we had one of the classic versions of God I when I was like, I can't olders one, essentially, yeah. Are Maxwell House or house Maxwell House? Now I'm not sure if it's separate, though. But it's another one that I think like many, many, many families.
Tracie Guy-Decker:Maxwell House is the one I grew up with from the 1920s. Yeah,
April Baskin:yeah. And it talks about how the, the child who says, Why do Why do you do this? Distance, right. And the Texas record is supposed to say which I would not say this to my child? Well, you know, like, you wouldn't have been let out of Egypt, if that's how you felt like this is a collective thing. And since you're, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not taking this wholesale from the traditional tags. My point is, is as we're moving through this, to recognize that different people are in different places with this. And it's helpful to notice that and so maybe you want to work with the kid who's down with it, who's into it, maybe you want over the person who is like I'm here for it, and maybe another person who is really inquisitive, or doesn't know what questions to ask, but cares, or people enter this work in different ways. And it's still possible to achieve, we don't need 100% alignment of humanity, in order for us to achieve monumental feats. We just need a critical mass of people who are asking aligned questions, and additional people who are asking slightly not aligned questions that help to agitate us, and to strengthen the questions we're asking and to strengthen our strategies. So my point is four kinds of people, four plus kinds of folks in this work and to recognize that people are at different developmental levels. And I probably quoted her before, and I'll quote her again, I love when Sherry Brown has said that
Unknown:you need to meet people where they are, it's like, you might want somebody to be somewhere else. But they are where they are. And the thing is, that doesn't mean that every person, whatever your work you might be doing is that you have to work with it, you can choose, right? But but you want to make a choice around being aware. And Frank and you within your own mind of this is where this person is. And you want to work with them if this is where they are, because it's not going to help me to wish they were farther along than they are because they're not yet. And so then we get to make that choice in deciding if this is someone in a French partnership, and moving work toward moving our world toward justice, if we want to take that on or not.
Tracie Guy-Decker:Just reminds me of the sort of the idea that this work is too important to throw people away. And so I think that if folks are in our presence and asking questions with genuine Kavanaugh, because you know, there is a method of trolling and you went intention. Yeah, thank you. carbonize with intention, so that there is a method of trolling that involves asking questions. So that's not what I'm talking about. But I think if someone is asking questions, even if those questions are difficult or wicked as our as our calls it, if they're if they come from genuine desire to learn, then this work is too important to throw people away.
April Baskin:Yeah, and what I would add, though, at times to, to kick it up a notch is, I think it's important to honor all questions. And if someone's at a certain developmental level, they might not be ready to join a specific leadership team or a specific project yet, and there's likely a different place from their position from what they know where they can be met. And that's the core principle without getting into some of the specifics of
Unknown:some favoritism or some meanness that could play out at times in some of our traditional Jewish texts is more this idea that there's a strategy, there's a resource and a strategy for every person, you just haven't, you might not have identified it yet.
April Baskin:And my hope is that there are enough people doing this work that the groups are people who may be hard for me to work with for any number of reasons, or they may find it hard for me to work with. Hopefully, I have some allies or some other partners of color in this work, who do have the right medicine or resources for those folks, right and so as to notice at times, and to hold out a possibility, which can kind of transition into another point that I hold out the possibility at times of being really clear around who I'm who I am well equipped to work with, which is a pretty broad range, but there are limitations to that and also not saying not dismissing those folks, but saying my medicine of indigenous comes from and so my medicine isn't quite right for them, but I know there are folks out there who do have medicine that can resonate with them and thank God for that. thank Goddess for that. It's wonderful, right? So I think that was number two, right?
Tracie Guy-Decker:Or was number three, that was number three. Really, there was a cleaning the diet and the the children.
April Baskin:were children. Okay. Okay. All right. So I'm gonna try to speed this up. Now. exit I want to talk about is wishes kept potential. She didn't say the Sylvian is Elijah. I want to name here, y'all. But sometimes it's called Elijah's cup, or Miriam's cup. There's this idea within traditional Judaism that we opened the door during Passover to welcoming guests or strangers and also to see if Elijah is there to inform us the prophet Elijah is there to inform us that the Messianic age or the Messiah is coming. And in our work, I think it's so important. This is a huge part of a huge underpinning. I work with Joyce justice, is this idea of, of me always holding out that radical new possibilities are possible. And that's not the core place from where I work. But I work with an openness to a metaphorical Elijah coming at any time. And me working to have enough agility in my work, that I can respond and shift, when that happens when there is a big breakthrough when something that I didn't think what happened. And that's what happened so quickly does for any number of reasons.
Tracie Guy-Decker:Yeah, that's really beautiful. We keep the cup ready for when Elijah does come.
April Baskin:Yeah. And this happens in movement work, like we've seen this in a lot of different areas around racial justice. But the example that first comes to mind for me is around marriage equality, but they were organizers and activists who are working for decades. And then I'd like full body chills. And then there's an opening and a moment at times, where something monumental that normally would take decades to happen can happen in a matter of months. And it was able to happen, in part because there were people who were willing to say we were willing to be open, despite all of the pain and trauma that had happened before. And despite the fatigue, that enough people had been preparing for that potential for years that when it came, they were ready to act and take action and make the most, right. And so back with us, too, with racial justice is as much as possible to take it as far as you can. And then also notice, if there are certain limitations, then you might need to conform to those limitations, if there's certain ways that you're blocked, but still, in your mind, still be pushing for that freedom in your mind and engaging your radical imagination of okay, I'm currently limited in my current role. And for various reasons, I might not be able to shift. But I'm going to hold that it's possible for somewhere, for an agency for a nonprofit for corporation to have this powerful impact in the world. And I'm going to keep cultivating that. So if and when I happen by fluke to become the CEO or something happens or an opportunity comes up at a firm that's doing just what I said, I see it, and I'm able to act on it and make the most of that. That Elijah moment. All right, we just finished for y'all. We're at the halfway point. Here we go. Let's keep it going. So for number five, is the Seder itself. Seder means order. I also like thinking of it as formation, shout out to Beyonce, let's get information, let's have order, is that there's room for the magical Elijah to come in. And part of what allows Elijah to work as we just talked about, is having different rituals and structure and practices that are consistent, that don't necessarily have to be as long as traditional Seder that ideally incorporate parts of the cedar overall, of remembering our purpose and what we're doing. And being intentional in our process. And having some wine or some metaphorical having something right. Like this is also part of best prints or at best principles around habit formation, is having some sweetness in there, right and celebration around honoring what's good, right. But something that helps a collective of people engage in rituals that they can begin to expect and help them feel safe and also make room for them to be more creative within a ritualized practice that can be very elaborate or relatively simple, but consistent. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thanks. Yeah. Right. All right. So that was fine. I
Tracie Guy-Decker:was five,
April Baskin:going ahead and showed six okay. Yeah, so number six, is a noticing the art of what's happening here in this theater that is for a specific reason in the holiday, but I think I can extrapolate it more broadly to racial justice work. So we begin thinking about these different pieces around our diet and our home and meticulously going through and bringing our laboratory consciousness into our individual selves and the spheres in which we operate. Right. And then we have rituals to help keep us on track and remind us of why we're doing what we're doing, and have some shared expectations with the people with whom we're doing this work around that rhythm, right. And while we're doing that, is noticing the freedom that we do have access to, and getting some pillows and relaxing a little. And that might not in your day to day work or activism or leadership look like necessarily literally pillows, but it might look like more comfortable shoes. It might look like having a water bottle with you at all times that maybe has some lemon in it. Or if you want need electrolytes, what else might that look like Tracie,
Tracie Guy-Decker:taking breaks and not giving yourself a hard time about it.
April Baskin:Yeah, taking breaks, reclining, noticing the freedom that we do have, we're still in Miss rain, but it isn't as bad as it was before. And I believe as I think I've talked about that, I believe in incorporating our destination into our process. Right, the more we can align with that, the faster that it can come right. And to me in the future, ideally, we're still engaging in I want to engage in rigorous things in a Messianic era, but I want them to be things that bring people joy or that contribute to the people around me in deep relationship and, and contributing to the further elevation of our consciousness around what's possible for humans and all sentient creatures with whom we interact on this gorgeous planet and in this broader universe, right. So that's, that's always going to be happening and ideally we have time to to exhale and breathe and let our shoulders relax and have a little bit of wine or whatever version of that if day drinking is probably not the best practice in general so so having fresh juice fresh vegetable or fruit juice or eating delicious fruits and vegetables and yummy sandwiches that nourish us and feel good and notice who's near us right and savor right like I can pause in this moment in real time and see Tracie on my screen in front of me and think wow not only do I get to do work that I'm passionate about but I get to do it with such a remarkable loving brilliant consistent, reliable, joyful partner you made me crazy right right you know that like to relax into a not let are working to get out of myths rhyme allow us not to see some of the liberation and freedom that is here right now and is real right now in this moment. Right. So I love you Tracie, lovey to April. That was six, right? Yes. All right. homestretch, y'all. I think I'm gonna let you bring us home with the eighth one. Tracie, since it was your idea. You had one that I think you might remember. So four seven, is we're doing this in community and with our family, right? So is the Jewish Passover tradition of if you're able to inviting a lot of people to your sacred cedar table, Sabir your save our table of inviting a lot of people to your Seder. And, or attending a Seder that has a number of people involved? Is this idea of community is that this work is best on in the context of community, especially since it is far more work than any one person or one team can do. We need community we need community around this work in our movement that like Passover, the different minhag team, I think would be the plural, the different, yes, customs might vary. But this idea of getting information continued, but in the context of many of us working in alignment with both diversity but alignment around some shared principles in within a broader swath of our work. And then as movements get even bigger, there might be different practices, right? And all of those things, right? We're dealing with so many adaptive challenges, and so many variables, that the more we can lean into the power and strength of that diversity, and the strength and power that diversity has as we work on our own internal cultural competence meaning our own ability to work effectively, and be open minded as we work across lines of difference. That's great. And oftentimes, we don't even need to work that much. across lines of difference. There are specific leaders who are doing that, but more Be at peace and that it's okay that within a similar movement, some other people have different strategies, some of which we agree with, and some of which we don't. But ultimately, is it truly moving us in a broader direction towards collective liberation? Yes, but let's keep it moving. Right. Yeah, so is, is community that part of me It's Ryan involves contraction and isolation. And part of the effect of internalized oppression is to blame the victim and internalize that blame, right. And so one of the best things community can do is to lift up our heads. Right, and ritual can help us start to do that and look around and see that we aren't alone. And then in fact, this is a broader issue, which we hear classically throughout a number of community organizing stories, historically and today is often can be actually a galvanizing thing for people is because oftentimes, oppression works to have the person blame themselves. And once they realize it's not them. And it's a broader thing. And there's a sort of inspired righteousness and rage. Although again, I think rage works for different things for different people, but isn't ultimately the but is it an initial rage that opens up this fire within a person and helps them connect with their reconnect with their spirit, and say, it wasn't me all along. This is a trick. This is a setup. And we can work in community to address this. And to and to not let this ignorance and oppression continue. Because we're going to link ARM and ARM we're touching is not your thing, walk side by side, and move toward collective liberation.
Tracie Guy-Decker:Yeah, so I'll just bring us home. Number eight, is actually related to some of the other things, but that is the power of questions. So this is related to the children that that April names and also to the cleaning that we talked about. But to really start to some of the ways that we are able to do that our tradition teaches us to ask to ask why, to ask how. And in those questions, it's not judgment. It is just an investigation in order to better understand and therefore metabolize in different ways. And so I would offer that as just the final Passover practice. To move us I would add liberation. Yeah,
April Baskin:yes, thank you. And I would add a little bit more to this briefly, which is that something I learned from my teacher and friend de la McCoy that I've used in my teachings moving forward to is that when you are in the work, right, if you're on the journey, and you are learning from a person of color, or you're learning from an inspiring leader, and something happens, they do something or say something that is upsetting to you, is rather than checking out, or being immediately critical, or attacking them, is to get curious. But really, if you don't understand if something happened, and it sort of miss you a little bit and you're not fully sure, be willing to get humble and curious, and to assume that you really may not know and to ask questions or to reach out and rather than disengaging or engaging in fight or flight, a way to remain present, is to stay in a space of curiosity, and asking questions and openness and openness to insight and greater knowledge. Yeah,
Tracie Guy-Decker:I would say replacing judgment with curiosity, just in general serves, serves us well as human beings.
April Baskin:So those are some of our eight Jewish practices and rituals that with a little bit of tweaking can be used to move us more quickly through Mitzrayim into spaciousness and collective liberation and a Messianic era in which we are all free and able to be in loving relationship, doing fun, transformative things together from a place of possibility and shared common purpose rather than oppression and pain. Hug Samia, happy Passover. And I'm so excited for us to continue to walk together in the direction of greater justice and joy. Thanks for tuning in. To learn more about joyous justice LLC, our team and how you can get involved with our community. Check out the info in our show notes, or find us at joyous justice.com If you enjoy this episode, show us some love. Subscribe wherever you're listening. Tell your people share what you're learning and how your leadership is evolving. Stay humble, but not too humble
Tracie Guy-Decker:and keep going because the future is ours
Unknown:to co create