The Joyous Justice Podcast

Ep. 116: Reflecting upon & Reimagining Thanksgiving

• April Baskin • Episode 116

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For the third year in a row, we’re bringing mindful attention to the American holiday on the fourth Thursday of November, commonly known as Thanksgiving. We think (and grieve) together about how Americans talk and think about the holiday and the Indigenous people who Thanksgiving by turn whitewashes or simply ignores. We’re also thinking about ways we might make our own observance with our values.

For the first time ever, we’re releasing this episode early if you want to consider our thoughts as you prepare for your observance. 


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Discussion and reflection questions:

  1. What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
  2. What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
  3. What feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
  4. What feelings and sensations are arising and where in your body do you feel them?

Listen to our previous episodes about his holiday: 


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Tracie:

The American holiday celebrated on the fourth Thursday of November is problematic at best, and a celebration of genocide at worst. For the third year in a row, we're interrogating Thanksgiving, we're looking at how Americans talk and think about the holiday. And the indigenous people who thinks giving by turns whitewashes or simply ignores. We're also thinking about ways we might make our own observance more aligned with our values. For the first time ever, we're releasing this episode early, so that those who want to consider our thoughts as they prepare for their observance can do so.

April Baskin:

You're listening to the Joyous Justice podcast,

Tracie:

a weekly show hosted by April Baskin with Tracie Guy Decker, in a

April Baskin:

complex world in which systemic oppression conditions us to deny others and our own humanity. let's dedicate ourselves to the pursuit and embodiment of wholeness, love and thriving in the world. And in our own lives. It's time to heal and flourish our way to a more joyous to just future.

Tracie:

Hi, Tracie, Hey there April,

April Baskin:

Hi friend listening in. So I often do a long intro, but I want to keep this one short today. And turn it over to Tracie to do a little bit of storytelling in just a moment. But for those who are tuning in on grateful Family Day, also known as slash the holiday, formally, it's still also federally known as Thanksgiving. And yeah, so that's happening if you're listening in or it will happen, perhaps proximate if you listen in soon. And feel free, we'll include it in the show notes, we've really dug in deep around a variety of themes with this holiday. So much so that I think Tracy and I feel really ideal, and I think but I think Tracy aligns with a to a sense of peacefulness around the clarity, I feel in my analysis about what this holiday means and what it can mean for different folks. And so I'm excited to see in light of the work that Tracy and I have continued to do, where this conversation will take us. And as I mentioned earlier, I'd love for us to start by grounding in a really wonderful story that Tracy started to tell me and then I painfully interrupted her and said, let's actually just record this because I think this is worth capturing. And it's wrong. Beautiful form.

Tracie:

Thanks, Tracie. Thank you, April. Yeah. So as I was starting to tell you, and now I'm going to tell our listeners right now, I'm, I carpool with another family in the neighborhood. And one of the kids in the carpool is a freshman in high school. And I pick him up first. And then I go pick up my daughter, and they're up at the elementary age sister. And so I always have about 10 minutes, just me and this 14 year old in the car. And just yesterday, he was telling me, Well, we could go now, for the listeners, he was telling me that a social studies teacher is having the class work on in teams designing potentially new monuments that could go at the site of Wounded Knee to honor and commemorate the members of the Sioux Nation who lost their lives at Wounded Knee. He was telling me that right now all that exists is like a, like a small kind of Tombstone type stone marker. And so the the social studies teacher is not sufficient. Yes. That's that was the message that the students were given and were invited to really think about, what what would that? What would a more appropriate marker and memorial look like? And so, so he's telling me about this project? And I said, Wow, that's really great thing for you all to be thinking about, especially in this run up to Thanksgiving, which kicked off this conversation with me and this 14 year old about Thanksgiving. So he said, Yeah, my teacher doesn't celebrate Thanksgiving because of what it represents. And it I don't know, it really makes me sort of sad that that Thanksgiving now has this reputation. And I was like, Yeah, well, it's kind of sad that we built a national holiday on the back of genocide. And he was like, Yeah, I feel bad. I kind of like Thanksgiving. This student. He's, um, he actually is a baker and like, like, sells his baked goods at farmer's markets and stuff has his own business. And I love making pumpkin pie and I make hand pies. And I don't know, should I? Maybe I shouldn't be doing that. And I was like, Well, this is really an interesting question like How are there ways that we can hold on to what's good about Thanksgiving? And not erase the things that are bad? Like, how can we like I actually pose it as a question to him, like, it's not a bad thing, to eat good food with your family and be grateful, that's not a bad thing. So what are ways that we can like, introduce new things that would allow us to keep the good without just ignoring or erasing the bad and we, we talked about changing the date, and making the third or whatever it is the fourth Thursday in November, actually some sort of day of mourning, or some some way to which I think the Native Americans are ready to eat that day as a day of mourning. And, and I said, you know, I think maybe we should just do it in like February or something. And, and my young friend was like, No, I think it needs to be in November, just not that day. So we had this whole conversation about what that might look like. I was telling him what I know, which is not that much about the peoples who live to where we live. And I think so, we live in Baltimore, and the the peoples who were here were the Piscataway and the Susquehanna. And for my limited research, I don't think that there are any who claim Susquehanna luck who are still living, who claimed Susquehanna ancestry, but the Piscataway tribe and nation is still very active and alive.

April Baskin:

We just pause for a second. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, I know, this, but I just want to and it's easy for me to miss the person who's not talking just for a moment, just to acknowledge one I want I want to just My first question is, there's probably some descendants. Yeah, why didn't and two, it's also possible because the genocide was that horrific that actually, maybe there are none. Right. And three, either one of those scenarios is just so we're not gonna, we're not gonna, I'm going to like emotion level three or four of this of 10. Right, like, like, I'm not going to allow us to fully go there because we need to finish this episode. And but in the context of other healing work I do, I just want to honor that that is like a, especially as members of for me, multiple peoples and for both of us, as Jews as people. I'm as a member of of people who have also been targeted for annihilation. Who and I just want to name really explicitly here, just really go meta, and also say, like, I have friends and my fellow healing leaders and in different spaces, pause me. So I don't want to make this a dichotomy, even in this moment of like tracer use the numbers, like we're in storytelling, and I just want to notice, like the end just have us all take a moment to honor the devastation that's just like, the norm and that it's not and it's still not even the norm for Tracy, just to name it, like just explicitly naming that and acknowledging it is countercultural, and what I would say is just bookmark this as I do at times and ways in my life of when you're in a healing space later on, or when you have time and space. If it makes sense. You might want to flag this as something to come back to and just process the feelings that arise. Now that I've concluded that interlude both feel free to respond to that Tracy or pick back up where you left off just like oh, yeah, I'm crying invisible tears in this moment, like my tables heavy. Yeah, I

Tracie:

actually I do want to resolve that because that is exactly when I so I did some research on the people whose land I now live on. For I think it was actually spurred by grateful from Family Day, last year, or maybe the year before, I don't know. But one of the times we had a conversation where I committed to listeners that I will look up on whose land I now live and I did.

Unknown:

And

Tracie:

if I no doubt there are people alive who have Susquehanna UK, ancestry ancestry, and there is no organized body

April Baskin:

sovereign garden and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do a mini for just a couple seconds just like a mini crying

Unknown:

sorry, please continue. Because it's really Yeah, it's really really heavy and I'm

April Baskin:

smiling, fully follow up to this moment because we're recording a podcast but like, sorry, go ahead. Is really

Tracie:

realizing that and then you know, sharing that with my younger relatives a year or two ago and and sharing And I still actually choose if I'm in a space where folks are doing land acknowledgement, I always named the Susquehanna rather than the Piscataway. And I mean, actually interrogate that a little bit after we break for, but that, yeah, that's been a thing. And I think it's important for you know, what you're reacting to, because part of my learning edge

Unknown:

around. Around native oppression is as

April Baskin:

up to up your ante a little bit. It's also really great to and I've been practicing more lately in the last six months saying indigenous, but

Tracie:

yeah. So but but part of my learning edge around the oppression of native and indigenous folks, especially here here on in North America, is that I was I've had internalized the idea that

Unknown:

they don't exist anymore. Right. I had totally internalized

April Baskin:

that idea. And so that, like, because it's been so heavily perpetuated by our culture and society. Yeah, yeah. Like

Tracie:

you thought of that. I don't know, I don't, I'm not beating myself up for that. I don't

April Baskin:

say that, for others who are listening, just to be really clear that that's part of the programming that many of us receive. And that's why my going my coming home work was so difficult, because I had to counter that about my own heritage within myself. Yeah, so please, Sorry, continue.

Unknown:

Yeah. So working to really

Tracie:

undo that programming and myself. And, you know, and stop perpetuating the erasure of indigenous peoples is, is one of my learning edges. Right? And, and so to do the research, on the people on whose land I live, and realize that there is no at least no organized body of that nation, yeah, the longer it was, it was really I'm not even sure how to articulate it, because it's sort of the deep sadness that there, I'm sensing in you. But there's also this sense of like, like, I'm too late, like my growing awareness is, is is too late, which I think is now that I'm saying that is part of why I lift, lift up that their name that nation, same when I name whose land I live on. Anyway, I feel like I've been talking a lot. Yeah, and I love

April Baskin:

it. And, and I've often talked, talked a lot during these episodes, and in general, which I think is wonderful in a number of ways. But I loved having your voice in this and your partnership. So thank you, it felt purposeful and helpful. In the context of our partnership, and for our beloved kindred spirits listening in. You know, what I would add to that or say is that I really appreciate you naming that thought. And I'm really excited to continue to dive more deeply into in general in our work, through our coaching through the different ways, we help our clients to support to facilitate a safe enough container where people feel comfortable sharing these thoughts, because these thoughts heavily impact how we feel about our, excuse me, heavily impact how we feel about ourselves, how we lead our lives, the way we perceive different things, and, and they didn't come from nowhere, but then we internalize them, and they just stay in us rather than being able to take them out and look at them. And you know, as I'm looking at what you just shared, and just want honoring it Shrimati first and foremost, I hear you in that chair, and I also want to say if I may may respond to it a little bit, of course. Yeah, is that I want to say I think that there's absolutely some truth to that. And also, as you know, like the work isn't done and not all is lost. And I'm thinking I'm thinking I'm not gonna go on that path. And I'm just thinking about parallel narratives around the show and and other moments of genocide and attempted genocide, where there's still so much healing and justice and truth and reconciliation that is possible that can heal and support and honor our ancestors and ourselves around this. And I just I just love that you shared, shared that and in so doing invited all of us to also think about what are other really hefty thoughts and perceptions that maybe totally bogus or in your case might actually there actually may be some truth in it, but if nothing else, it's good to not hold it alone and also perhaps to have other compassionate IT folks listen in and where and when appropriate also say. And also, here's this other perspective that likely we're like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, we do know that and can start to meld that additional idea that helps us return to our sense of humble but empowered agency around hefty devastating, collective and individual trauma. So thank you, Tracy. Again, Shrimati. Thank you. All that to say I loved I loved this story so much. And it feels like just such a beautiful progression of the conversation that we've been having. I also want to reflect back that I love that you were having it with a young person. And there's, there's something about it that is just so hopeful, and feels really great. And like, and the work is so not done. And yet it still feels so fantastic to hear. Because I'm guessing that actually, like, as amazing as you are, and he is, but actually, I think on some subtle level helps me feel like Dell aren't the only ones who are having conversations like this and it right, just No, I,

Unknown:

I definitely.

Tracie:

I definitely took that hope out of it too. And I think about I mean, when I think about what I was learning, as a freshman in high school compared to some of the stories that, you know, I'm hearing even in

April Baskin:

my like, this chatter, like shout out to his teacher. Yeah, like,

Tracie:

really, really amazing. We recently had a conversation about the student and I had a conversation about reconstruction after the Civil War that I was like, wow, I am so excited that you're learning about it. They were on some sort of team to talk about why reconstruction failed. And I was like, yeah, when was the answer? Racism? He was like, Well, yeah, I was on the team that argued white supremacy was the reason that reconstruction failed. And I was like, oh, oh, that's so yeah. So and I think about the way I learned about reconstruction, right, a freshman in high school, it was

April Baskin:

a neat 10 years later. Yeah, yeah, we did not talk about white supremacy. And I remember thinking at times, we want to talk about it with certain folks, like, you know, different different things. And you know, or even about the Civil War, like, or, you know, it wasn't or, you know, when people were like, you know, slavery wasn't asleep, it wasn't a reason, and I was like, but between, like, the power dynamics and the money.

Unknown:

And the sheer number of

April Baskin:

really, like this doesn't fit, you know, it's going back to that piece about earlier about how it's interesting. I want to just flip the script on not about intuitive sensing and presence and intuition and how that scene is bizarre, but yet, like, twisted, like, here's the data, you know, I was watching an Amanda seals video earlier about a different scenario. And she was like, you know, like, I don't even trust this guy. But like, when I don't trust him with two plus two, like, he

Unknown:

might be like, well, you know, depends. Sometimes it can be seven. Like, this is what that feels like.

April Baskin:

Like, I'm engaging with my ancestors, and also just doing logical, intuitive work around noticing different narratives and noticing how it's playing out in my own life. And that scene is bizarre, but like, not saying the very obvious reason why something popped off. And that's the only I'm not saying it's the, I can hear different people I know in my orbit, who are who you know, who have had previous conversations with, although hopefully they've since changed their tune. Anyway, I want to switch gears a little bit. And say, just again, shout out to this teacher and shout out to all the teachers who are helping to broaden and deepen the narrative who are weaving, critical race theory, and just accurate sociological analysis at the level that's appropriate for high schoolers. Like, it's so funny when, you know, that, like critical race theory is something that I learned in my undergrad, you know, when reviewing a lot of graduate study at graduate level content, and my high school education prepared me for this in different ways. But it wasn't. It was just, and it was mostly for my family. It wasn't necessarily my teachers did it. But I would find things and at times, like with the, with the Civil War thing I didn't, I was just like, huh, and I got a lot of bad grades for it. And a number of years throughout my childhood, because I wrote about like, native folks, and I wrote narratives that didn't fit the common narrative. And the point at which I got on a roll in high school, I mean, excuse me in college, was when I decided, you know, what, I know what I know. But this is a game. So I'm just going to say what this professor wants and I know the essay in my head, and I have my whole life to build it out. And all of a sudden, like, which was slightly disturbing, but I was like, Oh, I get I get this now I can hold me and my perspective and do that work, but in this specific context, I need to conform unlike with big assumption of a few liberatory teachers. So I'm so happy to hear and just shout out to all of those different, civic and otherwise, educators who are doing really brave work with our young people and equipping them to just take this so much farther and deeper in partnership, but I'm not and I don't like I like in some ways, I liked it as a kid that even early on, it didn't really have it. I don't really like the narrative of like, the children, our future, like we are all our future. And our children are people now. So let's respect them now in ways that are appropriate, like have boundaries for young people, but also, like, let's also counter act children's oppression. And let's not defer or offload our civic duty onto those young people. And let's all work together in different ways we have aligned to different things to bring all this to say, I feel like this is a pretty nice, juicy episode. And I think I'd like to spend another few minutes though, to round this out and circle back to some of the other pieces you talked about and just say that what I noticed or felt or experienced or wanted, all of those things, in what you shared is too for us to display on the joyous justice podcast, a nice, lovely continuum, that we are offering up of a variety of different ways to engage with the different questions and challenges and wildly problematic dynamics around Thanksgiving grateful family day, however, we want to call it and, and it's important for us to engage in these conversations, which we for those who have listened to before, we also have new listeners. So I'm both trying to, you know, catch folks up a little bit and also continue the conversation with the folks who have been in this with us for a while now that I just want to name here and contradict the ever present oppressive dynamic of, of optics or what's like performative expectations, like just to contradict that and say that there are a variety of different ways to engage this holiday, it's going to be interesting, I don't know if I'm even going to raise it with my family member with whom I've struggled with this holiday, I think I am more clear within myself, I have a bit more personal sovereignty around this. And I feel clear at this point in time, that I think I would personally love to dedicate a decent amount of time on the indigenous national day of mourning, to either engage in mourning and or take time to think about how I want to deepen and continue my coming home work my indigenous coming home work and or revisit the ways that I am in solidarity with my indigenous siblings, and elders. And if there are ways that I can deepen that, I think I am in the camp of, I would like to find a different day. I really would because there's so much momentum and different things and I really like I really like your young friends point about but there is something about it being in the fall because fall foods are gray and they're also African and indigenous and southern. So like I also like that for me and and like for my for my ancestry and for many people in There's comfort and that it's getting cold and there's a way to come together and I actually think it could be really interesting Truth and Reconciliation part of a broader truth and reconciliation process that either happens or this helps to move us in the direction of that happening to actually have them not be so far apart. And perhaps to have this new rescripting precede which means all kinds of interesting things for us with our work calendars for different people and scheduling but that's okay, we can do this for the purposes of collective liberation of having a grateful appreciative whatever we want to use growing family day we're like growing you know, we have we had our grounded and growing program and I like this idea of our family trees continuing to grow and blossom and evolve over time and that there can be an illness in the tree but then it can heal that and address it and continue to grow and grow new branches and grow new possibilities. Even if there was previously harm Yeah, it seems like you're like leaning in Tracy and so I was like in my hyperfocus neuro spicy zone but um,

Unknown:

I'm wanting to hear

Tracie:

thing that's coming up for me right now is the, the way that capitalism has also have sort of CO opted this day like so it's so now it's a day that we sort of Loki commemorate genocide and by spending money on things we don't need. And I recently, I follow the Piscataway Conway tribe there. So they're the this Yeah, you do separate the sentence, I follow them on on socials. And they have funds, where they use to help members become homeowners. And so I was just thinking that I am going to actually, instead of spending money on things that we don't need, I'm going to spend money to, to that fund to help the folks, the contemporary descendants of the peoples who on whose land I live, to actually become homeowners and access the means to generational wealth that this country has set up. That's, that's what

April Baskin:

I love that so much. Yes, I love the equity in that I love the honoring indigenous sovereignty and which is not new for you. Um, so I was highlighting these these things for those are tuning in, you know, and honoring the requests that are that some of the requests that were made by folks who are indigenous to the land upon which you live. And then that also ties into the other last piece that I wanted to name, which we haven't spoken yet, which we haven't spoken about yet on this podcast. But I'm excited to perhaps continue this moving forward. And this to this to be a launchpad perfect day for it is around the themes of land back, which I feel like what you're contributing to as a part of that. And I think it would be great for us to a time engage in conversation around the land back movement, and what it means and the different things that it means to different people to different indigenous people and allies. And that it's not necessarily about Yeah, that it's just about supporting indigenous sovereignty, and shifting, continuing our progress from acknowledgement into greater accountable relationship and reorientation to the land and the indigenous and the land and its original inhabitants. And in many cases, but not always, tragically, it's contemporary stewards, who often get drowned out because of oppressive systems and dynamics, but who are still here and who are still guiding and stewarding this work in a variety of different ways. And along with allies who are and other folks from approps, who are like me, where I would place myself in a rung outside of that as an indigenous heritage person who is less directly impacted by it as a person with mixed heritage identity, but also is deeply committed to this work to picking up the liberation, the liberatory fight of my ancestors, with conviction with clarity with strength and with deep humility, and positional awareness about where I fit into this conversation, which is very much a part of it, as someone who is indigenous, with indigenous heritage and as someone who did not grow up on a reservation, and who because of my appearance in different ways isn't as directly impacted as other indigenous heritage people are. And and I think for that is a very specific thing to me. And I also hope in hearing what I'm sharing that you our friend can also get some inspirational insight around how having me model the nuances of what that looks like for me as someone with an indigenous heritage it also with what Tracy shared of noticing within this and all these different things we shared to one you might also be you might be one of the folks and shout out if you are because I know we have some listeners and dear friends. Hi, I'm Amelia and other folks who are deep in deep accountable relationship with indigenous people locally in their area and also across the nation at times. Also Rhode Island got leave and Jews on Aloni land anyways, I wanted to shout out some of our people both who are listeners and also who are allies and collaborators in the work we do and in the Jewish in the Jewish community who are doing some of this work.

Unknown:

And

April Baskin:

anyway, that as you are listening friend, we want to invite you

Unknown:

to

April Baskin:

really savor and enjoy what is beautiful like because there's a lot of ugliness around this day and if you're listening on this day or even afterward, in the moment and or afterward, to savor one of this and start to have a little bit of a division around. Okay, some of this context isn't okay. And that doesn't necessarily have to infiltrate the love that we share here and begin to consider these different questions around. And it doesn't have to be in a particular order, you know, you might be like, Hmm, either I've already been tracking, or I think I want to look up and see, who are the indigenous nations that are proximate to me? And what are the different ways they're asking for solidarity and support? And can I do that, right, and even just asking those questions and looking at up, taking action is another step, you know that this is all, to me, there's so much around this issue and other issues, that is framed and in black or white. And a lot of this is totally nonlinear. And just around noticing where we are with it, and honoring ourselves, and anchoring in the truth of our experience, and approaching these different questions and engaging with them and letting it filter through our being and noticing what comes up. And as different things come up. As per usual, always feel free to reach out to us, we have a Facebook group, if you haven't already joined that we're going to be increasingly upping and supporting participation in the Joyce justice community on Facebook. And or, if you have our email or in our on our website, we have a contact page, where if you wanted to follow up with us about how you're thinking about this, or questions that arose for you, please feel free to do that. We are happy to be in dialogue and support you with this. And also if you're just busy and you're just tuning in as you're putting your vegan or non vegan turkey in the oven or doing whatever you're doing or cleaning up or reflecting on this a few days later. Know that we're with you, as you continue to contemplate this and think about what truth and reconciliation, what gratitude and appreciation and love of family looks like. As we also continue to move in the direction of acknowledgement and support of indigenous experience narrative identity, sovereignty, and the land back movement and wherever you are along that spectrum. So, Tracy, do you want to send us out with any

Unknown:

holiday related farewells?

April Baskin:

Or other insights that you often

Unknown:

wonderfully share?

Tracie:

Yes, I'll just note that we will put in the shownotes link where you can look up on a map the names of the peoples on his land who are occupied, occupied are hanging out, I will be in Milwaukee with my sister. So I'm gonna actually do some research on those peoples to add to my body of knowledge of indigenous North Americans. Okay. And

April Baskin:

also to with the invitation, I wanted to add an additional invitation because we have some amazing leaders and folks in our network if either you want to if there's a related conversation, not necessarily directly relating to Thanksgiving, but also or grieving family day, but also just indigenous sovereignty. Questions about my experience or issues that are happening, that you'd love us to amplify on the podcast, please feel free to be in touch. And if you're a friend of ours, or a new friend of ours, and there's a specific opportunity where we could potentially be in conversation together on the podcast, our doors open and this is an ongoing dialogue and this is just the next step in that and we'd love for you to be a part of it either spiritually, and or pragmatically, our doors open so much love May we continue to access healing, connection, and vision and appreciation for both where we're going and may amazing abolitionist courageous leaders who have always been on Turtle Island and who have always been in the United States, it's an opportunity and time for us to nourish ourselves and rise, because we've got a lot of joy and justice to advance. Much love. Thanks for tuning in.

Tracie:

To learn more about joyous justice LLC, our team and how you can get involved with our community. Check out the info in our show notes, or find us at joyousjustice.com

April Baskin:

If you enjoyed this episode, show us some love. Subscribe wherever you're listening. Tell your people share what you're learning and how your leadership is evolving. Stay humble, but not too humble. And keep going because if future is ours to co-create