Ep 98: Yes, and…it’s complicated: A TikTok Conversation Starter

In a return to the studio, April and Tracie use a TikTok video as a jumping off point for a conversation about Jewishness and whiteness, solidarity, the effects of trauma, and the ways that all of these change and shift over time. 

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Discussion and reflection questions:

1. What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
2. What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
3. What feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
4. What feelings and sensations are arising and where in your body do you feel them?

Transcript

Tracie: 0:00

This week, we're back in the studio after a bit of a hiatus, and we use the Tik Tok video as a jumping off point to discuss the nuance and complexity of solidarity and Ally ship.

April Baskin: 0:11

This is Jews Talk Racial Justice with April and Tracie,

Tracie: 0:14

a weekly show hosted by April Baskin and Tracie Guy Decker.

April Baskin: 0:18

in a complex world change takes courage,

Tracie: 0:21

wholehearted relationships can keep us accountable.

April Baskin: 0:25

We're recording another podcast. We're back in the studio. Hi, Tracy, it's so good to be here with you.

Tracie: 0:33

It's great to be with you April. I mean, we've seen each other but we haven't been like in the studio I'm putting here

April Baskin: 0:37

Yeah. And this dude, in the studio together. Yeah, recording it.

Tracie: 0:42

It's been a long minute. Yeah, it's

April Baskin: 0:44

been a minute. But I'm excited to record this episode. For those of you who are connected with me on social as you may know, and if you didn't know you do, I'm on the tail end of a rough bout of food poisoning. So we're going to try to keep this juicy and concise because I'm pushing it a bit to be recording this, but because I love Tracie so much. And I love y'all, and I especially love Tracie and our team, and we do so much great work I love. And this also feeds my spirit, I'd love to keep our momentum going. And for those of you who have been on this journey with us from the beginning, or you know, for a while now, at different points, I've talked about my ongoing spiritual and leadership evolution in terms of my heritage and spirituality and my journey toward ordination to become a coherent Hebrew priestess. And I'm not going to dive into all of that now. But just to say that, for those of you who heard the episode last year around the ongoing, my ongoing process around more deeply connecting to my indigenous Cherokee Chickasaw Choctaw heritage at that work has continued in really significant ways. And as a part of that evolution and working to both own, who I am and who I'm becoming, and also support myself in the process of becoming, I decided sign up on tick tock. And using some of these creative and various other techniques that I know I decided I would do three posts a day for 30 days on my tic tock account and on average, so if I'm, you know, at times I might feel creative and do more, so that I can do less on some days, or like, today and yesterday since I'm very sick, I didn't record any and I'm just tacking on two days to the end of the 30 days. But uh, so anyway, all this to say welcome to our new friends who are joining from Tik Tok. It's so great to have you here. Thank you for helping amplify the stitch that I did. For those who don't know, on tick tock, people make videos and you can do at them where your video will be side by side, there's and you can typically people do it to offer support, although I'm sure there's haters who use it for other things. Or you can quote unquote stitch a video where you pick a snippet of their video, and then you jump off of that you use that as a launch pad. And I did that on tic tac. Over the weekend, and I almost didn't post it and I'm so glad I did because it's now around has around 7000 views and it's been steadily climbing. Wow. Yeah, so cool and interesting. And it was about it was in response to a duet video that someone did. So if you visit my Tik Tok, which is @aprilavivabaskin, have you can

Tracie: 4:04

put a link in the show notes.

April Baskin: 4:06

Oh, thank you. Trace, you're so good with the stuff. Yeah. So I almost didn't post it. But I'm glad I did because it resonated with a lot of our people. And one of our listeners wrote in the comments, so shout out if you're hearing this now someone wrote like, Oh, I didn't realize you were on Tik Tok. I love your podcast. So thank you for that. Thank you for connecting. Thank you for listening. And I think you were just being sincere, but also for, you know, offering social proof to people who are looking at the comments to see like, yeah, this person who I've never seen before, actually has a podcast that actually has lists. All of this to say our joyous justice, and specifically our Jews talk racial justice circle is expanding and it's kind of perfect and shared. And to me, it's a wonderful sign from the Divine. Because as Tracy knows, I've been feeling like there's needed to be a bit of a shift And I'm just taking it a step at a time. But I'm intrigued by this development of new folks coming in because it's, it's reinvigorating me as we approach our 100th episode, so a Berko at and his handle is at won't be silent. So Jewish. You can't get much more Jewish than won't be silent. Right. I mean, it's also other groups but like, you're trying to silence me, but now I know,

Tracie: 5:34

that's kind of his accent a little bit. So.

April Baskin: 5:37

Right. Yeah. Right. You know, and so I love I love my, I love my peoples and specifically my Jewish people. So okay, so he did this video, but that was then do edited by Tik Tok User Page Wolf, who's handle is at page Woolf 79. So basically, it's worth going and watching at won't be silent, finding the video he does about Jews and people of color. And when I saw one thing that I did that I was expecting somebody to notice, but nobody did. But I one thing is that I specifically because I think, and he may have meant it pan ethnically, but to me in my mind, I, I thought I decided to specify it in my video and say black people. Yeah, Jews and Black people. Because I think in light of what he was saying and things one could, one could argue your way. But it seems to me that that's what he was getting at. Well, he does

Tracie: 6:37

have those signs, like he does sort of green screen with signs that say one says no Jews allowed and the other says no colored people allowed, like from the 50s. And so there's that, that is specifically a kind of blending of people of color, which is Pan Ethnic and colored people from the 50s, which meant Black people. Right.

April Baskin: 7:00

And he changed it to say people of color, but in my mind when it was saying colored people they were specifically referring to Black folks agreed. And so And given all of this history and things so. So as I said, in my stitch of this video, yeah, I agree, it would be great for us to partner. And what I know from being a Black person in the Jewish community, and in the world is that there are very real reasons why, from both ends of the community, as well as all of the oppression and dynamics that are hitting both communities in our society in general. Why this can be more complicated, but I did want to validate and I appreciate I think part of why this is, by his video got a lot of views when he has a pretty large platform on Tik Tok, and also why my videos going viral is because a number of Jews I mean, part of it may also be because I'm charming, but so charming, you know, you know, but, but it's because a lot of Jews profoundly desire, desire, this connection. And this alliance and this partnership, and this sense of belonging with Kindred aligned folks who have also been deeply targeted by oppression. And that that, without the added trauma or dysfunction, or other things that play out around that is a beautiful, pure, wonderful, uncomplicated desire. And in terms of the complexity and layers of it, we've had a whole podcast, it's approaching 100 episodes, to get into all of the nuances of why this is harder than why it is worthwhile, and also why it's harder than it may seem on its face. But that it's also achievable. Yeah, so an interview, there's some core elements here that we've talked about a lot, but especially for newer listeners, I'll just name also, it's always helpful to know when we're talking about Black Jewish relations, it's always helpful to name and notice that, that these communities are not completely separate, that there's overlap, and that there are Black Jews and, and also that within each of these communities, each of these groups of people are not monoliths, and they may share an identity but that there are different perspectives and elements and all those different things and those, those different facets also add some of the complexity of the antagonism and the friction that can happen between the communities. And also both groups have an immense Each have immense bodies of work. Both groups, and those of us who exist in the intersection, we all have an immense amount of work and more so for those of us who do live at the intersection, to do around healing from the trauma that has affected our peoples, to become aware of how heavily and how significantly, this impacts how we show up. One of the core challenges that the Black and Jewish communities face is that they are both they have been and are both targeted by whiteness, but historically, and in the present moment, it plays out very differently. And what each of the communities have at stake, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, we've talked about it in some of our episodes, or in an episode at least, about and also to there's different things at stake for both communities. You know, like the Jewish community as a whole. I've started to realize, in some ways this has been an asset, but spiritually and in terms of liberation, it's a huge challenge. The Jewish community has a complex set of relational dynamics with its close proximity to whiteness. Yeah. Right. And so that's at stake. So as we talk about a true true partnership, one of the things that comes up to me is that part of what that's going to mean is Jews establishing a different relationship or disavowing that whereas Black folks are the anchor of our the anchor that holds the entire racial hierarchy in place. And so we have a very, and I and I was born into that and live into that even as a lighter skinned Black person, but my orientation to whiteness, because I've had enough experiences throughout my life that said, You are literally the opposite of worthiness, you are the opposite of this, that in the context of joy and courage and other things, there are many more risks I am willing to take, because I can't lose something that I never had. Yeah, I think that eggs are very different for a lot of white Ashkenazi Jews.

Tracie: 12:20

I think that that point is really important. I've been thinking a lot about it lately in terms of the generational difference, right, because people my grandparents age, actually had less had further gap to acceptance as whiteness, and they knew that the danger and the lethality of anti semitism as a as a racialized thing, you know, from from the shore, whereas like, even my parents generation born after the war, but especially my generation, born in the 70s 80s, etc. Like, I, I only, like, I only have known Jewishness as being married to whiteness, that's, that's the identity that I have known, which my grandparents didn't. And so your point about what is at stake, it's important to to remember that sort of the distance or lack there of even thinking about your the tick soccer that you were referencing with the signs that he had in his background, which were from the 50, generational, right, that were a previous generation whereby Jewishness was further from whiteness are further from being accepted as white, right? By me so closer,

April Baskin: 13:41

but not but not lesser than black Knox. Yeah, but not Not, not not, not at where it is now team on not as second class citizens and team and Team White, which is basically what it is now. And at times I you know, I often push back when different folks, whether they be in the UK, although that has its own dynamics in some ways, or in the States when Jews talk about when they experience racism. And I'm like my further word bigotry because you're still being treated as as someone who's now White. Yeah, I get all those experiences you're talking about or being treated as To me that's more about bigotry or discrimination. It doesn't. It's not you're still in the fold. In some in some way. And I you know, as you know, I've often used this phrase on this podcast, I often talk about conditional whiteness, and I would even say that it's a conditional whiteness, but it's still whiteness. Yeah. Right. And so how do we start to talk and so this is why this is one of the things in the context of our podcasts and other programs and offerings we've provided and run and continue to offer about how do we support our people around more deeply understanding this around finding themselves in it. Unrelated Lee, one of the thoughts I was having as you were talking a few moments ago, you know, to me a big part of the Jewish peep piece here. For our people, which we've talked about, again, in a prior episode is about finding and understanding and reorienting to what safety means. Like, as you were talking, you were, you were naming you know that there was a process like, it wasn't just it didn't just happen that this generational shift happened, there were choices made along the way that Jews made in the context of oppression. And inherited and current day traumas were with the best knowledge and understanding they had, they chose safety. And what safety looks like to them was upward mobility was moving it was was participating and not necessarily being fully conscious of it. Other times being aware of it, participating in white flight of leaving Black people behind. There are parts of this of these histories, and this generational shift, and these dynamics that we need to look at and be aware of and own in our story as we're talking. So when we talk about partnership, and we come to the table, we can actually make some progress, because depending upon the level of engagement with the Black person on the other side of the table, you can hear a range of different things from Yes, absolutely. Literally, you hear these you hear all you hear this whole spectrum, from Black influencers, just people on social media. And similarly, you also hear a range of these different spectrums for Jews in different ways. But from like, Yes, I am, I think, absolutely. Jews and Black people need to totally be in it together to a number of people from the New York area who might say, Yeah, I don't have a great history, with Jews in my life in my neighborhood. And not just one person, a lot of them. And I saw them regularly hurting my Black people, to two prominent Black clergy, who not publicly but privately in conversation, say a range of things, one of them being I've been open for 10 plus 20 plus years to party to meaningful, true relationship in partnership with Jews. And when something happens to me, or when, when or when I reach out to them for help. They're not. They're not there. Right, you know that there's a whole there's just a whole bunch of there are a bunch of missed signals here. And as someone who's who's in between these dynamics, I see at times what's happening, like, Oh, my Jewish people are terrified right now. And they're in their trauma response. And they have no idea right now that they're, that they're letting down. And, and oh, like, my black folks right now don't understand that Jews are in their terror response that they're not actually exert, although that's actually they're doing both are both exerting white racism, but they're, it's more about their terror that's manifesting through their oppressor pattern, but they're actually terrifying. They're not actually trying to keep you down. They're just trying to live, you know, like, I just see these different things playing out. And these are all things that are figure out trouble. And that can be healed and process that we can become aware of and anticipate and avoid and shift. But there's all of this is just a little bit of an expansion into the Yes. And that I gave in my stitch of Yes, I agree. This would be amazing. The other piece that I want to say here is this is a core way that oppression works. And this is a theme that recently came up at the workshop I attended well until I got sick. But the workshop that I attended this weekend, Black African community development and liberation. It used to be called BLCD, Black liberation and community development. But we're and they're doing a lot of work on integrating the Black African diaspora at diaspora with people on the continent and other calling it Black African, which is very, you know, they said, like, we might continue to evolve it. So that's a really cool development. And I love their leading edge thinking around that. And one of the things that Barbara, that Professor Barbara Love talked about at that workshop, specifically just for Black people, and this is also very much true in the context of Blacks and Jews is that the primary work for Black and African heritage people is healing that one of the core goals and actions of colonization has been to constantly separate us from each other is to constantly through tearing apart our families, the languages and have an cultivate mistrust among each other. Now, interestingly, a side note, which I'm not planning on getting into right now, an effect of the trauma on Jews is to not trust the Other, the impact of 1000s of years of anti Jewish oppression is also not to trust each other to an extent but as more about not trusting, right, any allies. And this gets very complicated in the context of, and that is a core pattern that plays out with Black folks. Right as they're trying and other folks, but especially as they're trying to be an ally, and then so. So there's healing, that's, that's the it is part of it is about, like getting folks to do more. And some of it is us to get enough healing to allow in what folks are doing. Right, what are doing and have been doing, yeah, that we without realizing it, through our trauma have been undermining and stopping. Right. But so she talked about how we're just so true about us being seen as not enough in our blackness and, and that a core part of our work is to constantly reach for each other and to not let that division get in the way for what so when professional it both in the context of healing, but also in the world, for us to be connected and honor one another. And to me, there was a very similar dynamic here between Blacks and Jews were this, this is the core hurt for I mean, among many, many things, obviously. But in terms of entropy, that keeps us from accessing our full power with each other, as Black and African heritage people. And to me, it's sort of similar between Black people and Jewish people were there are a number of different dynamics that have served to drive substantial wedges that can be dissolved, but we need to really be aware of them not be in denial of them, also not get overwhelmed by them recognize that these things aren't bigger than us. But they are formidable. So we do need to be aware of them. So we know how to navigate them effectively. And also notice one of those things we've internalized, because by getting healing around those things, and shifting that it might be formidable, but it ain't got nothing on us. If it's no longer our kryptonite might be happening. You know, it's back to that metaphor that I've shared many times that barber love gave at a different than vlcd. Now BALCD of the oppression table that in order for pressions is to stand it needs to, to to peg table, the oppressors oppression, and the oppress internalization. And that, and that you, you only need to destabilize one in order for the oppression to not be able to exist. And so that's why I'm so big on this healing piece and doing the inner work, not necessarily fully, because that's a cure all. Because as we heal these things, it's not that it stops the external from happening. But it completely shifts whether or not it has any power over us, and how we move through the world and how we start to navigate around it and get ahead of it. So that's a little bit of a foray into the GS talk racial justice orbit. And we decided to extend now through Friday, or perhaps the weekend, too, we'll probably still keep the page up. But but we're saying Friday, but we extended the deadline, in part because I'm getting more traction on Tiktok. And I haven't even really yet even talked about grounded and growing. But we have two programs we're running right now. On the last episode, we gave the discounts, tracing them now and or in the outro. Make sure that information. But if what we said resonated and or you were charmed, and the dazzled by our amazing wit and brilliance. There are two opportunities that we have for you to engage with us in a smaller, mindful cohort group setting this summer in a matter of days. So you can find more information on our website and Tracie created a couple discounts for our podcast listeners. To us anything else? Tracie? I'm losing steam here.

Tracie: 24:10

No, I'm, you know, I think this was a great sample episode. Life is more complicated than life and relationships and dismantling oppression is more complicated than many people give it credit for. We can't get it done. If we underestimated

April Baskin: 24:26

what actually thank you for saying that because I think actually that's actually that's exactly what it is Tracy. And because of that, then people feel super disempowered. Yeah. But what they don't realize is if they just had a bit more information and a few more core skills, which is why we created ground and growing is to help and I think we may change the name and time we impart just use that name. It's a wonderful name to sort of manage expectations because we're covering a distilled large volume of material in a relatively short amount of time, but it's really about resilience and self and broader awareness, bringing a try Wind forms lends and giving people a core insights and tools you need to continually get stronger and stronger and more resilient and more visionary over time. And I just I love what you said, there, Tracie, I feel like we could potentially do a whole episode about that in the future. So don't just talk about it now. But what you just said is that people often don't understand it. And then they get rolled over by it, and they feel and then it taps in from a trauma informed perspective. And it taps into their early defeats. And it just becomes something that they can't overcome, right. And what I'm saying is through trauma informed awareness and or healing, if you want to go even deeper, actually, and more education, which you can get through joyous justice and a range of other resources as you start to. And that's what I love about our teachings as we teach the core things you need to know. And also some of the core refrains so that you know what you're dealing with. And you might still not win the next time you try. But you might notice I'm getting traction. And I tried this strategy. And I actually got so much further and opened up new conversations. Let me try that again. And see how I can get that further is that new doors and pathways can start to open. And it just takes that much more insight and also getting, although I'm noticing too, there's some disheartening, I'm just I could just keep talking forever about this, Tracy. But there are a number of folks, too. And this isn't to undermine, because I still think this is also true, although it seems slightly contradictory. But it's not, that I noticed, especially in our community, and I definitely had have had this on my spiritual journey is that I noticed that folks seem to just constantly be looking outside for the next thing. And to me, it's much more about some of the core principles and reframes and insights and getting a deepening and going for the depth of understanding and repeating those core lessons at greater depths. And once you get those, to me, it's like piano lessons. Like once you know, the core, which has the scale lemons, yeah, once you have the scales, and everything's when you really master those, there's not some other magical scale, you need to know, you just need to really get good at that. And then build and move from strength to strength

Tracie: 27:15

from there, like in our fitness metaphor, it's like you keep looking for the the pair of shoes that's going to make you run the marathon, when really are the are the specific exercise regimen, it's the running, just have to keep keep rolling, right or like a special or like a

April Baskin: 27:27

special routine as opposed to it or eating healthy food and and working on your mobility and using proper form and getting better and better at using the correct form. And that it's through that and through building that musculature. And not some magical, although there might be some amazing program. But there's it's not less about some magical thing and more about the core. Yeah, pillars on the building the foundation, really getting a solid foundation in this specifically because a core way that racism and other forms of oppression operate is to undermine our sense of knowing. So one of the best ways to equip ourselves and not be overwhelmed by these things, is to really more thoroughly and foundationally understand them and have a suite through grounded and growing of antidotes and tools and resources that you can customize to your needs at any given moment or a phase of your leadership to help you navigate them and metabolize these experiences. So not only are you no longer defeated by them, that you might still experience some sort of loss, but you're able to metabolize it in a way that you can get different insight and figure out how to more skillfully navigate these moments moving forward. Because oppression is not bigger than us. It is on our skin. Occasionally. It's in us like an infection, but we can get healing and it might be a little painful temporarily, especially if it's an infection has gone a little bit inside but that pain is the healing. So we just need to get these resources continue to heal. Yeah.

Tracie: 29:06

We gotta we gotta wrap this up. I'll see. I'll see you next week.

April Baskin: 29:09

All right, much love T.

Tracie: 29:11

We've extended the registration deadline for both grounded and growing and shift your life in 60 days until Friday, July 22. And Jews Talk Racial Justice listeners get a special discount. Simply enter the coupon code JTRJ22. At checkout to get your discount. Hope to see you soon

April Baskin: 29:33

Thanks for tuning in. Our show's theme music was composed by Elliot Hammer. You can find this track and other beats on Instagram@elliothammer. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and subscribe. To join the conversation visit us talk racial justice.com where you can send us a question or suggestion, access our show notes and learn more about our team. Take care until next time and Stay humble and keep going